4 ms·

This is indeed a great story, which gives again two different views on security. East of the iron curtain everything, even marginally secret, was very carefull

by ptero 8y ago

This is indeed a great story, which gives again two different views on security. East of the iron curtain everything, even marginally secret, was very carefully controlled, accounted for and losing a single not-too-secret page meant an automatic 10-year labor camp term. West of it, control was much looser and many more secrets leaked out. However, technology was also developed much faster -- you need serious encouragement to convince a good engineer to work under East's penalties and restrictions on personal life if other interesting work is available. East put major resources of the state on stealing technology not by choice -- it had few other options to avoid military tech obsolescence. So leakage and all, West's system worked pretty well. My 2c.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
ransom1538 8y ago
Yes. But put ON your tin foil hat for a second. I think the West wanted the missile to be taken. Handing over old missile technology is pretty ingenious. If your adversary actually pulls it off and copies it, they will have a 5 year old missile. Having an old missile on your warplane, while flying against the latest tech was a death sentence. This was different than say, nuclear technology, where having a 5 year old model was still extremely dangerous. Also, being handed old tech sucks up all your engineering resources. An analogy would be reading vs writing code. Reading code is x10 more difficult, fraught with misconceptions and inability to expand the tech.
- scruffyherder 8y ago
  And it keeps the arms race in motion.
- afiori 8y ago
  It could have been 10 years old even, the point is that they can use it to build better missiles. This can happen both because their missile were terrible or because now they can copy the solutions you used 5 (or 10) years ago. unless that particular model was a certified crappy missile that could not work in any way and that was a plot the have them lose time there is no reason to give them an old missile.
  - jacobush 8y ago
    There were such plots though, look for red mercury. :)
- logfromblammo 8y ago
  There is also something to be said for convincing your enemy to build obsolete weaponry that is more expensive to build than the obsolete weaponry they were already building. If you have reasonable certainty there won't be a hot war, winning a cold war is a matter of having a stronger economy and better logistics. You can leak older missile tech to the enemy, and they can work on reverse engineering it, while you install cutting-edge countermeasures on all mobile targets. They wasted a bunch of time and money catching up to where you were, and you're already 50 miles down the road. Then maybe you have a proxy war to show off your new tech. You keep the war cold by convincing the enemy that if they start something for real, they will not only lose, but also suffer international humiliation and disdain. It also keeps your rival in the game, so they don't give up. A cold war is good for the military-industrial complexes on both sides. Peace and consumer trade cuts in to the profit margins. Can't have people choosing butter over guns.
- tivert 8y ago
  > If your adversary actually pulls it off and copies it, they will have a 5 year old missile. Having an old missile on your warplane, while flying against the latest tech was a death sentence. If they want to copy your 5 year old missile, their current missiles are probably even worse. If you have the capability to clone an air-to-air missile, you have the capability to evaluate its performance to confirm that it's an improvement over your current designs.
- Kalium 8y ago
  That's a very interesting thought process! Thank you for bringing it forth. Might there be an easier answer? Perhaps the West was using a risk-based approach to security, where a missile built with aging technology just isn't as dangerous if stole as a current one. I'm sure it's just my naive reading, but this seems like it would produce a functionally identical outcome without requiring a tinfoil hat or deliberate staking of bait for an adversary.
- dylan604 8y ago
  >Yes. But put ON your tin foil hat for a second. >I think the West wanted the missile to be taken. I would love to find out that there is video evidence on tape of this actually occurring. I'm imagining that there were a group of people that planned this, and were sitting in a room watching it (with bowls of popcorn) laughing at them doing it. That means that group of people are also very good at keeping secrets. It's just farcical enough to possibly be true, until you remember actual true stories like the underwater voice line recorder with "Made In The USA" stamped on it that is now on display in the Kremlin (or wherever).
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
andrepd 8y ago
>losing a single not-too-secret page meant an automatic 10-year labor camp term [citation needed]
pilsetnieks 8y ago
Having not lived through it but having heard many, many stories about it, I'm not sure your characterization of the East side is entirely correct. While many things were ostensibly highly guarded (i.e. guards were stationed,) and the rules were strict, and penalties for breaking them very harsh, it was common knowledge that if you lucked out and got yourself in a position where you had access to any kind of goods, you would be a fool not to try to spirit something away on the side. Many, many people engaged in what would now be deemed outright theft, and everyone covered for everyone else - it all had to look good on paper, not so much in reality. When a new government building or a housing block was built, no one batted an eye when afterwards the foreman somehow also had built a dacha (summer house) for himself, and his subordinates had built a garage or an extension to their homes, or just suddenly had spare money on hand to buy a car (which is another story in itself, with the 10-year waitlists, etc.) They had comedy movies about industrial theft even back in the 60s[1]. Now, the rules would be more strict in a military installation but there was more than likely plenty of lax behavior even there. As long as you didn't commit the egregious error of having discrepancies be noticed and documented, greased the right hands, knew people in the right places, and shared in your luck, you could get away with an awful lot of things. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Y_and_Shurik%27s_Other_Adventures#Segment_"Operation_Y"_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Y_and_Shurik%27s_Oth...
- stcredzero 8y ago
  When a new government building or a housing block was built, no one batted an eye when afterwards the foreman somehow also had built a dacha (summer house) for himself, and his subordinates had built a garage or an extension to their homes Here's one Bay Area/SV equivalent. (Not even theft, though.) Newly minted tech millionaire buys a home. It's already very nice. Maybe it has some really nice wood paneling, but the new owner has to make her/his mark and change it out. The architect assures the client that all of the materials will be recycled. A few months later, the home has a new interior, and the workmen have really nice paneling in their basement rec room. One former coworker of mine back in Texas was in a failing startup, and on the last day, he literally just carted off some Herman Miller Aeron chairs and some servers. He just chalked it up as the amount he felt he was shorted on his last paycheck. Now, the rules would be more strict in a military installation but there was more than likely plenty of lax behavior even there. As long as you didn't commit the egregious error of having discrepancies be noticed and documented, greased the right hands, knew people in the right places, and shared in your luck, you could get away with an awful lot of things. Pretty much what the crooked logistics officer character was doing in Catch 22. He was essentially running a black market empire on the backs of military logistics. One wonders if Kurt Vonnegut was inspired by real life events.

by ptero 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

ransom1538 8y ago

Yes. But put ON your tin foil hat for a second. I think the West wanted the missile to be taken. Handing over old missile technology is pretty ingenious. If your adversary actually pulls it off and copies it, they will have a 5 year old missile. Having an old missile on your warplane, while flying against the latest tech was a death sentence. This was different than say, nuclear technology, where having a 5 year old model was still extremely dangerous. Also, being handed old tech sucks up all your engineering resources. An analogy would be reading vs writing code. Reading code is x10 more difficult, fraught with misconceptions and inability to expand the tech.

scruffyherder 8y ago
And it keeps the arms race in motion.
afiori 8y ago
It could have been 10 years old even, the point is that they can use it to build better missiles. This can happen both because their missile were terrible or because now they can copy the solutions you used 5 (or 10) years ago. unless that particular model was a certified crappy missile that could not work in any way and that was a plot the have them lose time there is no reason to give them an old missile.
- jacobush 8y ago
  There were such plots though, look for red mercury. :)
logfromblammo 8y ago
There is also something to be said for convincing your enemy to build obsolete weaponry that is more expensive to build than the obsolete weaponry they were already building. If you have reasonable certainty there won't be a hot war, winning a cold war is a matter of having a stronger economy and better logistics. You can leak older missile tech to the enemy, and they can work on reverse engineering it, while you install cutting-edge countermeasures on all mobile targets. They wasted a bunch of time and money catching up to where you were, and you're already 50 miles down the road. Then maybe you have a proxy war to show off your new tech. You keep the war cold by convincing the enemy that if they start something for real, they will not only lose, but also suffer international humiliation and disdain. It also keeps your rival in the game, so they don't give up. A cold war is good for the military-industrial complexes on both sides. Peace and consumer trade cuts in to the profit margins. Can't have people choosing butter over guns.
tivert 8y ago
> If your adversary actually pulls it off and copies it, they will have a 5 year old missile. Having an old missile on your warplane, while flying against the latest tech was a death sentence. If they want to copy your 5 year old missile, their current missiles are probably even worse. If you have the capability to clone an air-to-air missile, you have the capability to evaluate its performance to confirm that it's an improvement over your current designs.
Kalium 8y ago
That's a very interesting thought process! Thank you for bringing it forth. Might there be an easier answer? Perhaps the West was using a risk-based approach to security, where a missile built with aging technology just isn't as dangerous if stole as a current one. I'm sure it's just my naive reading, but this seems like it would produce a functionally identical outcome without requiring a tinfoil hat or deliberate staking of bait for an adversary.
dylan604 8y ago
>Yes. But put ON your tin foil hat for a second. >I think the West wanted the missile to be taken. I would love to find out that there is video evidence on tape of this actually occurring. I'm imagining that there were a group of people that planned this, and were sitting in a room watching it (with bowls of popcorn) laughing at them doing it. That means that group of people are also very good at keeping secrets. It's just farcical enough to possibly be true, until you remember actual true stories like the underwater voice line recorder with "Made In The USA" stamped on it that is now on display in the Kremlin (or wherever).
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

andrepd 8y ago

>losing a single not-too-secret page meant an automatic 10-year labor camp term [citation needed]

pilsetnieks 8y ago

Having not lived through it but having heard many, many stories about it, I'm not sure your characterization of the East side is entirely correct. While many things were ostensibly highly guarded (i.e. guards were stationed,) and the rules were strict, and penalties for breaking them very harsh, it was common knowledge that if you lucked out and got yourself in a position where you had access to any kind of goods, you would be a fool not to try to spirit something away on the side. Many, many people engaged in what would now be deemed outright theft, and everyone covered for everyone else - it all had to look good on paper, not so much in reality. When a new government building or a housing block was built, no one batted an eye when afterwards the foreman somehow also had built a dacha (summer house) for himself, and his subordinates had built a garage or an extension to their homes, or just suddenly had spare money on hand to buy a car (which is another story in itself, with the 10-year waitlists, etc.) They had comedy movies about industrial theft even back in the 60s[1]. Now, the rules would be more strict in a military installation but there was more than likely plenty of lax behavior even there. As long as you didn't commit the egregious error of having discrepancies be noticed and documented, greased the right hands, knew people in the right places, and shared in your luck, you could get away with an awful lot of things. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Y_and_Shurik%27s_Other_Adventures#Segment_"Operation_Y"_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Y_and_Shurik%27s_Oth...

stcredzero 8y ago
When a new government building or a housing block was built, no one batted an eye when afterwards the foreman somehow also had built a dacha (summer house) for himself, and his subordinates had built a garage or an extension to their homes Here's one Bay Area/SV equivalent. (Not even theft, though.) Newly minted tech millionaire buys a home. It's already very nice. Maybe it has some really nice wood paneling, but the new owner has to make her/his mark and change it out. The architect assures the client that all of the materials will be recycled. A few months later, the home has a new interior, and the workmen have really nice paneling in their basement rec room. One former coworker of mine back in Texas was in a failing startup, and on the last day, he literally just carted off some Herman Miller Aeron chairs and some servers. He just chalked it up as the amount he felt he was shorted on his last paycheck. Now, the rules would be more strict in a military installation but there was more than likely plenty of lax behavior even there. As long as you didn't commit the egregious error of having discrepancies be noticed and documented, greased the right hands, knew people in the right places, and shared in your luck, you could get away with an awful lot of things. Pretty much what the crooked logistics officer character was doing in Catch 22. He was essentially running a black market empire on the backs of military logistics. One wonders if Kurt Vonnegut was inspired by real life events.