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Please watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYj_FPT90cM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYj_FPT90cM (it's about Norway, which has very humanitarian

by pluma 8y ago

Please watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYj_FPT90cM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYj_FPT90cM (it's about Norway, which has very humanitarian prisons) The short version is that a naive comparison shows that recidivism in Norway is much lower than in the US, a more thorough comparison shows that recidivism is actually not so different. But either way, making prisons worse doesn't actually help fighting crime. So the decision whether prisoners should be treated humanely or not is more about ideology than effectiveness. And personally I think humans should be treated humanely, no matter what they did.

beaconstudios 8y ago
I think you may have missed my point. What I'm saying is, between a horrible prison and the Ritz, what's the optimum point so as to treat prisoners as humanely as possible without becoming an actively inviting environment? It's only logical to balance the moral responsibility to preserve human dignity with the risk of creating perverse incentives.
- pluma 8y ago
  > It's only logical to balance the moral responsibility to preserve human dignity I don't know, the American prison system doesn't seem to consider that a high importance. The problem in Japan seems to be that the not-even-actually-nice prison system still trumps the conditions under which those pensioners apparently live. If your prison system is not a complete nightmare and people seem to be intentionally getting themselves imprisoned the right solution isn't to make the prisons worse, it's to fix the social problems that are making people prefer going to prison (i.e. in this case: loneliness, societal neglect, poverty and shame).
  - beaconstudios 8y ago
    > I don't know, the American prison system doesn't seem to consider that a high importance. I'm not here to defend the American prison system - I'm talking more generally. > f your prison system is not a complete nightmare and people seem to be intentionally getting themselves imprisoned the right solution isn't to make the prisons worse, it's to fix the social problems that are making people prefer going to prison (i.e. in this case: loneliness, societal neglect, poverty and shame). Obviously that's the ideal, but it's literally impossible. How is the government (or whichever organisation) going to solve all its citizens' personal problems? If we lived in a world where all people's personal problems were taken care of, prisons would be barely needed.
    - Phenix88be 8y ago
      > How is the government (or whichever organisation) going to solve all its citizens' personal problems? Money ?
      - beaconstudios 8y ago
        well if all the government needs is money and it can solve all its citizens' problems, that's great news because the government can print money. Someone should have tried this earlier.
        Phenix88be 8y ago
        Money is one of the issue pointed by this article... Maybe not print money, but we can get some with, let's say, fighting tax fraud ?
    - Tor3 8y ago
      > Obviously that's the ideal, but it's literally impossible. How is the government (or whichever organisation) going to solve all its citizens' personal problems? If we are still talking about poverty, loneliness, etc, then the solution is to build old people's homes. As a lot of countries do, so it's clearly not impossible. The residents pay a percentage of their pension and/or fortune, if you're poor you pay little, of you're well off you pay more. But everyone can get a place to live. The specific problem in Japan as described in the article is that the basic state pension is too low to live off. And with no alternatives you end up as Toshio. The retirement age is also very low in Japan, which doesn't help - you're supposed to live off your pension from you're 60 or even younger. That'll be several decades of very poor economy for a lot of old people.
      - beaconstudios 8y ago
        I think a large part of the problem is that Japan is experiencing generational shrinkage. It doesn't matter which way you slice it, when people over the age of 65 make up 1/4 of the population and many need significant care it's going to be impossible to do so without redirecting a sizeable share of their economic output to elderly care. Taxes are just an indirection for directing labour towards social projects so they're not inherently able to overcome constraints like this.

by pluma 8y ago

beaconstudios 8y ago

I think you may have missed my point. What I'm saying is, between a horrible prison and the Ritz, what's the optimum point so as to treat prisoners as humanely as possible without becoming an actively inviting environment? It's only logical to balance the moral responsibility to preserve human dignity with the risk of creating perverse incentives.

pluma 8y ago
> It's only logical to balance the moral responsibility to preserve human dignity I don't know, the American prison system doesn't seem to consider that a high importance. The problem in Japan seems to be that the not-even-actually-nice prison system still trumps the conditions under which those pensioners apparently live. If your prison system is not a complete nightmare and people seem to be intentionally getting themselves imprisoned the right solution isn't to make the prisons worse, it's to fix the social problems that are making people prefer going to prison (i.e. in this case: loneliness, societal neglect, poverty and shame).
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  > I don't know, the American prison system doesn't seem to consider that a high importance. I'm not here to defend the American prison system - I'm talking more generally. > f your prison system is not a complete nightmare and people seem to be intentionally getting themselves imprisoned the right solution isn't to make the prisons worse, it's to fix the social problems that are making people prefer going to prison (i.e. in this case: loneliness, societal neglect, poverty and shame). Obviously that's the ideal, but it's literally impossible. How is the government (or whichever organisation) going to solve all its citizens' personal problems? If we lived in a world where all people's personal problems were taken care of, prisons would be barely needed.
  - Phenix88be 8y ago
    > How is the government (or whichever organisation) going to solve all its citizens' personal problems? Money ?
    - beaconstudios 8y ago
      well if all the government needs is money and it can solve all its citizens' problems, that's great news because the government can print money. Someone should have tried this earlier.
      - Phenix88be 8y ago
        Money is one of the issue pointed by this article... Maybe not print money, but we can get some with, let's say, fighting tax fraud ?
  - Tor3 8y ago
    > Obviously that's the ideal, but it's literally impossible. How is the government (or whichever organisation) going to solve all its citizens' personal problems? If we are still talking about poverty, loneliness, etc, then the solution is to build old people's homes. As a lot of countries do, so it's clearly not impossible. The residents pay a percentage of their pension and/or fortune, if you're poor you pay little, of you're well off you pay more. But everyone can get a place to live. The specific problem in Japan as described in the article is that the basic state pension is too low to live off. And with no alternatives you end up as Toshio. The retirement age is also very low in Japan, which doesn't help - you're supposed to live off your pension from you're 60 or even younger. That'll be several decades of very poor economy for a lot of old people.
    - beaconstudios 8y ago
      I think a large part of the problem is that Japan is experiencing generational shrinkage. It doesn't matter which way you slice it, when people over the age of 65 make up 1/4 of the population and many need significant care it's going to be impossible to do so without redirecting a sizeable share of their economic output to elderly care. Taxes are just an indirection for directing labour towards social projects so they're not inherently able to overcome constraints like this.