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>just because "immigrants lower wages" is "common knowledge" doesn't make it true. [1] From your own cite: >Immigrant workers can either be substitutes for na

by treis 8y ago

>just because "immigrants lower wages" is "common knowledge" doesn't make it true. [1] From your own cite: >Immigrant workers can either be substitutes for native-born workers or complements to them. When immigrant workers are substitutes for native-born workers, they compete for similar jobs. Using a simple supply and demand model, an influx of substitutable workers constitutes an increase in the supply of labor, causing wages to fall for workers with similar skills. Because many immigrants are low-skilled workers, economic studies have found that an influx of immigrants depresses wages for low-skilled native-born workers in the short run.6 And, because many immigrants are also high-skilled, a similar substitution effect occurs for some high-skilled workers. It goes on to talk about complementary workers: >. For example, consider that immigrant workers account for 22 percent of the construction workforce. They tend to pursue jobs in the construction industry that require less training and education but are areas where the industry has its largest labor shortages—such as painters, drywall installers, and construction laborers.7 This supply of immigrant labor has decreased the cost and presumably increased the number of homes produced and sold over time. The increase in housing construction has increased the demand for higher-skilled construction workers such as contractors, electricians, and plumbers While that's a nice thought, it isn't comforting to those that aren't contractors, electricians, or plumbers. They need those low skill positions in order to gain the experience to move into higher skilled ones. The hardest job for a programmer to get is their first one. Especially those that don't come from a traditional CS background. This is really where the H1B visa hurts American workers. Companies would much rather go for an immigrant on an H1B visa than train Americans to do the work.

cptskippy 8y ago
At my organization we don't have any junior devs, we're all leads and they bring in H1B contractors that are less than or equal to junior devs in EXP but far cheaper, we use them for a bit until we complain loud enough, and then management ends their contract. I like the contractors as people but not as coworkers. It's always mixed feelings when they go, part relief and part sorrow. Occasionally we do get a good one and we beg for them to hire them but our Talent Strategies department (i.e. HR eyeroll) won't sponsor them.
joshe 8y ago
That's the section where they acknowledge that, yes, people lose jobs to immigrants. They go on to say that actually more people gain jobs at higher wages because of immigrants. There's a section on high tech jobs to read too, take a look. Most people believe that immigrants generally lower wages and take jobs. They almost never do. Economists who have done hundreds of studies on different wage markets have found that immigrants create more jobs and raise wages in most cases. Also in the paper? "... how does immigration affect the average American?...annual economic gains to the native-born population to be between 0.1 and 0.3 percent of gross domestic product". This is an astonishingly large benefit. Some estimate that switching completely to self driving cars would add .2% to gdp a year. It's that big a gain. Almost no other policy we can think of has this great an effect. Our current gdp growth is at 2%. It's not unusual to be wrong about this, there aren't more than 5 people at any major newspaper who understand that immigrants create jobs. 95% of news stories you have ever read get this wrong. Add to that the media always going for max outrage, and you get stories about workers being replaced. Never stories about the workers that immigrants added. Btw, H1-B workers are not magic, an American worker is creating complementary jobs too. This is why cities have such high wages, the high density of complementary labor. And hey, when have you ever known software to not create the need for more software :0)
- treis 8y ago
  >Also in the paper? "... how does immigration affect the average American?...annual economic gains to the native-born population to be between 0.1 and 0.3 percent of gross domestic product". This is an astonishingly large benefit. That is $50-150 per year for a household with a median income. It's not an astonishingly large benefit. And the GDP is entirely the wrong thing to look at. In the last two decades the U.S. has roughly doubled its GDP while the median household income hasn't increased at all. Nobody really doubts that bringing in immigrants skilled or otherwise will make the economy larger. It's more about who benefits. If you're the guy that runs the business using all of this immigrant labor you do great. If you're the guy competing with immigrants for jobs you don't do great. >That's the section where they acknowledge that, yes, people lose jobs to immigrants. They go on to say that actually more people gain jobs at higher wages because of immigrants. >There's a section on high tech jobs to read too, take a look. All I see is a quote from Bill Gates and misleading statistics. Nothing that indicates that more Americans work in high tech fields at higher wages due to immigrants. >And hey, when have you ever known software to not create the need for more software :0) Which you hire more Indians to write...
onlyrealcuzzo 8y ago
Before anyone says it, if construction costs increased because laborers were paid more, it would not make housing more expensive. It would make land less expensive. This would be good for everyone except the arisotocrat.

by treis 8y ago

cptskippy 8y ago

At my organization we don't have any junior devs, we're all leads and they bring in H1B contractors that are less than or equal to junior devs in EXP but far cheaper, we use them for a bit until we complain loud enough, and then management ends their contract. I like the contractors as people but not as coworkers. It's always mixed feelings when they go, part relief and part sorrow. Occasionally we do get a good one and we beg for them to hire them but our Talent Strategies department (i.e. HR eyeroll) won't sponsor them.

joshe 8y ago

That's the section where they acknowledge that, yes, people lose jobs to immigrants. They go on to say that actually more people gain jobs at higher wages because of immigrants. There's a section on high tech jobs to read too, take a look. Most people believe that immigrants generally lower wages and take jobs. They almost never do. Economists who have done hundreds of studies on different wage markets have found that immigrants create more jobs and raise wages in most cases. Also in the paper? "... how does immigration affect the average American?...annual economic gains to the native-born population to be between 0.1 and 0.3 percent of gross domestic product". This is an astonishingly large benefit. Some estimate that switching completely to self driving cars would add .2% to gdp a year. It's that big a gain. Almost no other policy we can think of has this great an effect. Our current gdp growth is at 2%. It's not unusual to be wrong about this, there aren't more than 5 people at any major newspaper who understand that immigrants create jobs. 95% of news stories you have ever read get this wrong. Add to that the media always going for max outrage, and you get stories about workers being replaced. Never stories about the workers that immigrants added. Btw, H1-B workers are not magic, an American worker is creating complementary jobs too. This is why cities have such high wages, the high density of complementary labor. And hey, when have you ever known software to not create the need for more software :0)

treis 8y ago
>Also in the paper? "... how does immigration affect the average American?...annual economic gains to the native-born population to be between 0.1 and 0.3 percent of gross domestic product". This is an astonishingly large benefit. That is $50-150 per year for a household with a median income. It's not an astonishingly large benefit. And the GDP is entirely the wrong thing to look at. In the last two decades the U.S. has roughly doubled its GDP while the median household income hasn't increased at all. Nobody really doubts that bringing in immigrants skilled or otherwise will make the economy larger. It's more about who benefits. If you're the guy that runs the business using all of this immigrant labor you do great. If you're the guy competing with immigrants for jobs you don't do great. >That's the section where they acknowledge that, yes, people lose jobs to immigrants. They go on to say that actually more people gain jobs at higher wages because of immigrants. >There's a section on high tech jobs to read too, take a look. All I see is a quote from Bill Gates and misleading statistics. Nothing that indicates that more Americans work in high tech fields at higher wages due to immigrants. >And hey, when have you ever known software to not create the need for more software :0) Which you hire more Indians to write...

onlyrealcuzzo 8y ago

Before anyone says it, if construction costs increased because laborers were paid more, it would not make housing more expensive. It would make land less expensive. This would be good for everyone except the arisotocrat.