5 ms·

>Regressions happen, and the Eternal September is real. Is that a regression, though? I mean the state pre-ES was basically that the unwashed masses weren't ab

>Regressions happen, and the Eternal September is real. Is that a regression, though? I mean the state pre-ES was basically that the unwashed masses weren't able to use a special service for their more-refined betters. To me, it's essentially the difference between a country club and a public park. Certainly, the country club is better maintained and more pleasant for its members than a public park. But there's, at minimum, a strong case to be made that a park that all may use is a greater social good than a country club limited to a few.

Baeocystin 8y ago
I think the better analogy would be the origins of the coffee house. https://ineedcoffee.com/the-coffee-house-a-history/ https://ineedcoffee.com/the-coffee-house-a-history/ They rapidly became a place where people from all walks of life could, and did, come for lively discussion. And their rapid increase in popularity caused them to collapse from their own success. Early access to the internet was, by definition, limited to people who were on academic or military networks. But by the time BBS culture came about, it was the thrill of finding like-minded folks from wherever they might be- it was not a culture based on exclusion per se, like what you would find at a country club.
- wyattpeak 8y ago
  I chose country club specifically because I think there has always been a strong fiction of meritocracy in IT and I was very specifically highlighting the exclusatory nature of the culture. "All walks of life" is a polite fiction. The September in "Eternal September", after all, refers to university intake. "Wherever they might be" is a bit of a cop-out, because they weren't really "wherever", they were in other universities. It wasn't a coffee shop, it was a strongly walled garden which only very specific groups of people could reasonably access.
  - Baeocystin 8y ago
    Anyone with access to a modem could, and did, participate in the BBS era. I had great conversations with people from all walks of life. Not fiction.
    - wyattpeak 8y ago
      "Anyone with a modem" is not a trivial bar. It's like saying "anyone with a CNC setup has been able to 3D print for decades". Yes, but it was the introduction of easy-to-use 3D printers which actually, rather than theoretically, democratised it. As it was with AOL and Usenet.
      - Baeocystin 8y ago
        Modems have been around for a very long time. By the time the mid-80's rolled around, a 300-baud cuff modem was well within the range of a young kid who had some paper-route money, because that's what I did. And my family was not wealthy at all. [edit]- I found an article from 1987 talking about how amazingly fast (and cheap) the new 2400 baud modems were. I had to chuckle, as I still remember going from 300 (slow enough that your reading speed was baud-limited) to 1200 (wow! I can barely keep up!) 2400 and above was a speed that seemed almost decadent. http://www.technofileonline.com/texts/2400modem88.html http://www.technofileonline.com/texts/2400modem88.html
        bewo001 8y ago
        Not all parents were OK with blocking the phone line with a modem when they have just watched a movie were a curious teenager almost started WW III by accidentally hacking into the Pentagon (speaking from experience).
        Baeocystin 8y ago
        I thought it was so cool to have an acoustic-coupler modem like Broderick's character in War Games. Never did find the number to connect to the WOPR, though.
        cfmcdonald 8y ago
        In the mid-80s, only maybe 10% of U.S. households had a computer, much less a modem. You also paid by-the-minute long-distance charges for calling anyone (or any computer) outside your town.
- User23 8y ago
  "Nobody goes there anymore. It’s too crowded"
TheCraiggers 8y ago
>But there's, at minimum, a strong case to be made that a park that all may use is a greater social good than a country club limited to a few. Can't both sides be correct? There is certainly a host of good feelings one gets when they're a part of something that is exclusive. (Not saying it's morally right, just making an observation.) Whether those feelings are altruistic or not is besides the point. From that person's point of view, they no longer have those good feelings when their club is no longer exclusive. From the view of the larger public, the ends justify the means as the happiness of all is larger than the loss of happiness of the few. But for those few, it's still worse.
- Baeocystin 8y ago
  I think folks on the more populist side of belief tend to forget that the Tragedy of the Commons is a real thing, too.
  - TheCraiggers 8y ago
    I suppose it depends on where you are, but where I'm from many populist folks don't really believe in the Tragedy of the Commons. God gave them the resources to use, we can't possibly use them all up, humans aren't powerful enough to change the earth, yadda yadda. Global Climate Change is just one big Tragedy of the Commons.

Baeocystin 8y ago

I think the better analogy would be the origins of the coffee house. https://ineedcoffee.com/the-coffee-house-a-history/ https://ineedcoffee.com/the-coffee-house-a-history/ They rapidly became a place where people from all walks of life could, and did, come for lively discussion. And their rapid increase in popularity caused them to collapse from their own success. Early access to the internet was, by definition, limited to people who were on academic or military networks. But by the time BBS culture came about, it was the thrill of finding like-minded folks from wherever they might be- it was not a culture based on exclusion per se, like what you would find at a country club.

wyattpeak 8y ago
I chose country club specifically because I think there has always been a strong fiction of meritocracy in IT and I was very specifically highlighting the exclusatory nature of the culture. "All walks of life" is a polite fiction. The September in "Eternal September", after all, refers to university intake. "Wherever they might be" is a bit of a cop-out, because they weren't really "wherever", they were in other universities. It wasn't a coffee shop, it was a strongly walled garden which only very specific groups of people could reasonably access.
- Baeocystin 8y ago
  Anyone with access to a modem could, and did, participate in the BBS era. I had great conversations with people from all walks of life. Not fiction.
  - wyattpeak 8y ago
    "Anyone with a modem" is not a trivial bar. It's like saying "anyone with a CNC setup has been able to 3D print for decades". Yes, but it was the introduction of easy-to-use 3D printers which actually, rather than theoretically, democratised it. As it was with AOL and Usenet.
    - Baeocystin 8y ago
      Modems have been around for a very long time. By the time the mid-80's rolled around, a 300-baud cuff modem was well within the range of a young kid who had some paper-route money, because that's what I did. And my family was not wealthy at all. [edit]- I found an article from 1987 talking about how amazingly fast (and cheap) the new 2400 baud modems were. I had to chuckle, as I still remember going from 300 (slow enough that your reading speed was baud-limited) to 1200 (wow! I can barely keep up!) 2400 and above was a speed that seemed almost decadent. http://www.technofileonline.com/texts/2400modem88.html http://www.technofileonline.com/texts/2400modem88.html
      - bewo001 8y ago
        Not all parents were OK with blocking the phone line with a modem when they have just watched a movie were a curious teenager almost started WW III by accidentally hacking into the Pentagon (speaking from experience).
        Baeocystin 8y ago
        I thought it was so cool to have an acoustic-coupler modem like Broderick's character in War Games. Never did find the number to connect to the WOPR, though.
      - cfmcdonald 8y ago
        In the mid-80s, only maybe 10% of U.S. households had a computer, much less a modem. You also paid by-the-minute long-distance charges for calling anyone (or any computer) outside your town.
User23 8y ago
"Nobody goes there anymore. It’s too crowded"

TheCraiggers 8y ago

>But there's, at minimum, a strong case to be made that a park that all may use is a greater social good than a country club limited to a few. Can't both sides be correct? There is certainly a host of good feelings one gets when they're a part of something that is exclusive. (Not saying it's morally right, just making an observation.) Whether those feelings are altruistic or not is besides the point. From that person's point of view, they no longer have those good feelings when their club is no longer exclusive. From the view of the larger public, the ends justify the means as the happiness of all is larger than the loss of happiness of the few. But for those few, it's still worse.

Baeocystin 8y ago
I think folks on the more populist side of belief tend to forget that the Tragedy of the Commons is a real thing, too.
- TheCraiggers 8y ago
  I suppose it depends on where you are, but where I'm from many populist folks don't really believe in the Tragedy of the Commons. God gave them the resources to use, we can't possibly use them all up, humans aren't powerful enough to change the earth, yadda yadda. Global Climate Change is just one big Tragedy of the Commons.