6 ms·

So true. We need more people to be loud in the center.

by bargl 8y ago

sparkie 8y ago
There are people being loud in the center who are still incorrectly labelled as "far right" or some other meaningless label and targeted for deplatforming. Unfortunately, politicization is inevitable when double standards exist in moderation. If you're going to have rules, they need to be applied evenly. We've seen that several of the internet giants are incredibly inconsistent in their approaches to banning content or users from the two sides of the political spectrum. Nowhere seems to be safe, including HN.
- Baeocystin 8y ago
  A few years ago, I never would have thought I'd be sympathising with Reagan and his "I didn't leave..." quote, particularly considering that I lean left on most political decisions. But man has it been a shock to see how quickly the progressive side of the left shifted what was considered left and right here in the US. And I am dismayed by how all political opinions across the board are now considered shibboleths for a purity test rather than subjects worth discussing. When I was growing up, my father was a diplomat for the US Foreign Service. He was a small-d democrat. His best friend was a small-r republican. They both greatly valued each other's thoughts and opinions, and each allowed the other to sway their positions across convivial dinner-table discussion. I know such approaches are possible because I saw it on a regular basis, and I would like it if we could get back to said approach.
  - wolco 8y ago
    That was of a different era where politics anb religion wasn't discussed in mixed company. Now you need to yell which side you are on as virtual signage.
  - monadgonad 8y ago
    > He was a small-d democrat. His best friend was a small-r republican. Uh, that's not what those mean, unless your father was a monarchist and his friend a believer in dictatorships? "Small-p Partyname" is used to differentiate the actual word that the party's name is from the proper noun. A small-c conservative is someone who holds conservative beliefs, regardless of whether they support a Conservative party.
    - Baeocystin 8y ago
      The common usage is to indicate that while a person has a political preference, the party per se is not the important aspect of their politics.
      - dllthomas 8y ago
        In my experience, the other guy has it right: "Small-d democrat" means someone who supports democracy (... enough compared to some base line in whatever context that it's worth discussing), not someone who weakly endorses the Democratic party. A small-d democrat may be an avid big-D Democrat, or a weak one, or not one at all. I'm sure a big portion of the Republican party are small-d democrats when the alternative is monarchism.
- ardy42 8y ago
  > There are people being loud in the center who are still incorrectly labelled as "far right" or some other meaningless label and targeted for deplatforming. Could you give some examples?
  - bargl 8y ago
    Joe Rogan.
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    Bryan Lunduke.
  - Sacho 8y ago
    Tim Pool (https://twitter.com/igd_news/status/871794622439313409 https://twitter.com/igd_news/status/871794622439313409) Dave Rubin(https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/9/24/17883330/dave-rubin-ben-shapiro-youtube-reactionary-right-peterson https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/9/24/17883330/d...) Jordan Peterson(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCGewQc9ktA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCGewQc9ktA) And so on. But are these meaningful examples? I would argue both yes and no. No, because it's difficult to argue that the people calling them out are not a minority of activists who are just pushing their own political agenda. Yes, because even if it's a minority viewpoint, it's effective - people apathetic to the given issue are likely to take the word of the activists as gospel, which leads to deplatforming. A very visible example of the effectiveness of this tactic is Charles Murray and The Bell Curve. Regardless of the validity of more sophisticated criticism of his work, he has been effectively denounced as a racist and deplatformed. This also leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy where speakers presenting their ideas find themselves shunned by group X, and supported by group anti-X. As X step up silencing/deplatforming efforts, either the speaker fades into obscurity, or receives enough support from anti-X to continue their work, but now they can reliably be demonized via guilt by association(Jordan Peterson and the NBC news piece is an example).
    - claudiawerner 8y ago
      They are not far-right or alt-right but they continually show sympathies with such ideas, and defend the same status quo that the right-wing wants to support. They are continually invited and supported by right-wing speakers. It's not as though these people are exactly centrists, and even if they were, there's a reason for a left-wing individual to critique them too. >Charles Murray Is a member of a right-wing think tank and the serious criticism of his work often alleges him of using scientific racism. Is it a far stretch to say that a proponent of scientific racism is himself a racist? Is it wrong to denounce people on such matters? Perhaps the critique can stretch beyond the mere empirical validity of the results and into the philosophy of what the authors are arguing. These methodological issues are in the purview of critical theory too. >his also leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy where speakers presenting their ideas find themselves shunned by group X, and supported by group anti-X. I'm skeptical of the idea that the only reason why such people are supported by anti-X is because they have been shunned by X.
bobdole12345 8y ago
I'm guessing you're American? None of you are in the center. Just a bit of perspective for you.
- philwelch 8y ago
  Care to elaborate on that?
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    It's a popular, or at least persistent, european meme to dramatically underestimate the political diversity of the American public. He believes that all Americans are on the right.
    - cjslep 8y ago
      As an American living in Europe, it's actually a fairly accurate one. The American greater public is generally much narrower than in Europe, in particular due to Europe's history with Communism and the various degrees of strength of the labor class compared to America. There are a lot of "left" policies that are unthinkable and unspeakable at a national discourse level.
      - darkpuma 8y ago
        >None of you are in the center. That's not accurate. And there are Americans who are very far to the left. Anybody making blanket statements starting with "all Americans" or "no Americans" is guilty of generalization.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        cjslep 8y ago
        It is accurate. Reread what I've said. "It's a fairly accurate portrayal of the national discourse and the court of public opinion," to paraphrase When was the last time you found yourself questioning capitalism in the USA? That tends to be the center in Europe, and is unthinkable by the general public and national discourse in media in the USA. Obviously, I am not defending generalizations and recognize extremist political factions exist in the USA. I am not going to get into a semantic battle about what someone else said when the general idea is there and was just expressed poorly, and the poor semantics are used to somehow disprove the actual idea.

So true. We need more people to be loud in the center.

by bargl 8y ago

So true. We need more people to be loud in the center.

There are people being loud in the center who are still incorrectly labelled as "far right" or some other meaningless label and targeted for deplatforming. Unfortunately, politicization is inevitable when double standards exist in moderation. If you're going to have rules, they need to be applied evenly. We've seen that several of the internet giants are incredibly inconsistent in their approaches to banning content or users from the two sides of the political spectrum. Nowhere seems to be safe, including HN.

Baeocystin 8y ago
A few years ago, I never would have thought I'd be sympathising with Reagan and his "I didn't leave..." quote, particularly considering that I lean left on most political decisions. But man has it been a shock to see how quickly the progressive side of the left shifted what was considered left and right here in the US. And I am dismayed by how all political opinions across the board are now considered shibboleths for a purity test rather than subjects worth discussing. When I was growing up, my father was a diplomat for the US Foreign Service. He was a small-d democrat. His best friend was a small-r republican. They both greatly valued each other's thoughts and opinions, and each allowed the other to sway their positions across convivial dinner-table discussion. I know such approaches are possible because I saw it on a regular basis, and I would like it if we could get back to said approach.
- wolco 8y ago
  That was of a different era where politics anb religion wasn't discussed in mixed company. Now you need to yell which side you are on as virtual signage.
- monadgonad 8y ago
  > He was a small-d democrat. His best friend was a small-r republican. Uh, that's not what those mean, unless your father was a monarchist and his friend a believer in dictatorships? "Small-p Partyname" is used to differentiate the actual word that the party's name is from the proper noun. A small-c conservative is someone who holds conservative beliefs, regardless of whether they support a Conservative party.
  - Baeocystin 8y ago
    The common usage is to indicate that while a person has a political preference, the party per se is not the important aspect of their politics.
    - dllthomas 8y ago
      In my experience, the other guy has it right: "Small-d democrat" means someone who supports democracy (... enough compared to some base line in whatever context that it's worth discussing), not someone who weakly endorses the Democratic party. A small-d democrat may be an avid big-D Democrat, or a weak one, or not one at all. I'm sure a big portion of the Republican party are small-d democrats when the alternative is monarchism.
ardy42 8y ago
> There are people being loud in the center who are still incorrectly labelled as "far right" or some other meaningless label and targeted for deplatforming. Could you give some examples?
- bargl 8y ago
  Joe Rogan.
- darkpuma 8y ago
  Bryan Lunduke.
- Sacho 8y ago
  Tim Pool (https://twitter.com/igd_news/status/871794622439313409 https://twitter.com/igd_news/status/871794622439313409) Dave Rubin(https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/9/24/17883330/dave-rubin-ben-shapiro-youtube-reactionary-right-peterson https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/9/24/17883330/d...) Jordan Peterson(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCGewQc9ktA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCGewQc9ktA) And so on. But are these meaningful examples? I would argue both yes and no. No, because it's difficult to argue that the people calling them out are not a minority of activists who are just pushing their own political agenda. Yes, because even if it's a minority viewpoint, it's effective - people apathetic to the given issue are likely to take the word of the activists as gospel, which leads to deplatforming. A very visible example of the effectiveness of this tactic is Charles Murray and The Bell Curve. Regardless of the validity of more sophisticated criticism of his work, he has been effectively denounced as a racist and deplatformed. This also leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy where speakers presenting their ideas find themselves shunned by group X, and supported by group anti-X. As X step up silencing/deplatforming efforts, either the speaker fades into obscurity, or receives enough support from anti-X to continue their work, but now they can reliably be demonized via guilt by association(Jordan Peterson and the NBC news piece is an example).
  - claudiawerner 8y ago
    They are not far-right or alt-right but they continually show sympathies with such ideas, and defend the same status quo that the right-wing wants to support. They are continually invited and supported by right-wing speakers. It's not as though these people are exactly centrists, and even if they were, there's a reason for a left-wing individual to critique them too. >Charles Murray Is a member of a right-wing think tank and the serious criticism of his work often alleges him of using scientific racism. Is it a far stretch to say that a proponent of scientific racism is himself a racist? Is it wrong to denounce people on such matters? Perhaps the critique can stretch beyond the mere empirical validity of the results and into the philosophy of what the authors are arguing. These methodological issues are in the purview of critical theory too. >his also leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy where speakers presenting their ideas find themselves shunned by group X, and supported by group anti-X. I'm skeptical of the idea that the only reason why such people are supported by anti-X is because they have been shunned by X.

bobdole12345 8y ago

I'm guessing you're American? None of you are in the center. Just a bit of perspective for you.

philwelch 8y ago
Care to elaborate on that?
- darkpuma 8y ago
  It's a popular, or at least persistent, european meme to dramatically underestimate the political diversity of the American public. He believes that all Americans are on the right.
  - cjslep 8y ago
    As an American living in Europe, it's actually a fairly accurate one. The American greater public is generally much narrower than in Europe, in particular due to Europe's history with Communism and the various degrees of strength of the labor class compared to America. There are a lot of "left" policies that are unthinkable and unspeakable at a national discourse level.
    - darkpuma 8y ago
      >None of you are in the center. That's not accurate. And there are Americans who are very far to the left. Anybody making blanket statements starting with "all Americans" or "no Americans" is guilty of generalization.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - cjslep 8y ago
        It is accurate. Reread what I've said. "It's a fairly accurate portrayal of the national discourse and the court of public opinion," to paraphrase When was the last time you found yourself questioning capitalism in the USA? That tends to be the center in Europe, and is unthinkable by the general public and national discourse in media in the USA. Obviously, I am not defending generalizations and recognize extremist political factions exist in the USA. I am not going to get into a semantic battle about what someone else said when the general idea is there and was just expressed poorly, and the poor semantics are used to somehow disprove the actual idea.