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...and sometimes, things really were better, too. Regressions happen, and the Eternal September is real. This does not mean that there aren't wonderful things

...and sometimes, things really were better, too. Regressions happen, and the Eternal September is real. This does not mean that there aren't wonderful things available in today's web environment, too. There is no one to blame other than the natural evolution of a system. But something was lost, and it is ok to miss it.

xtracto 8y ago
> Regressions happen, and the Eternal September is real. Now that UUCP time has come and gone, I wonder if Usenet might have returned to its once former glory. It would be a really good place for technical conversation.
- FPGAhacker 8y ago
  Well, it's google groups now, right? It's a decent ready-to-go forum. I only used it for the clojure groups, but then the clj community discovered slack. All that useful topically categorized awesomeness now must be mined from worthless slack logs.
  - floren 8y ago
    Usenet still exists independent of Google Groups. Google provides an interface for users to post on Usenet groups, at least until they decide to stop supporting it, but you don't need Google at all to get on Usenet: http://www.eternal-september.org/ http://www.eternal-september.org/
cortesoft 8y ago
But 'Eternal September' describes what happens to a particular platform, as something moves from niche to mainstream. There are new niche things that take their place, but people are often at a point in their lives where they aren't seeking out the new niche stuff anymore.
- Baeocystin 8y ago
  >There are new niche things that take their place, but people are often at a point in their lives where they aren't seeking out the new niche stuff anymore. Speaking just for myself, here, but this has not been my experience. In my opinion, that interest in the early internet was a niche was essentially orthogonal to what it offered. It just so happened that the mindset of folks who would be attracted to the early offerings was a small portion of the overall population. But it wasn't the fact that the group was comparatively small that was what was interesting.
  - cortesoft 8y ago
    Right, but my point was that during that early internet period, you just happened to be in the niche group that was on it. There are new niche things out there now, but you aren't in the right group to be in that niche anymore.
    - Baeocystin 8y ago
      Re-reading what I wrote, I see that I neglected to mention the other salient aspect- I don't find it difficult to find niche interests nowaday at all. Thanks to the internet, finding like-minded individuals for just about anything has never been easier. But it's a different feeling than it was before, because of how things work. And some of that works against the process of forming smaller, tight-knit communities than how it used to be. And it's ok to lament loss. Does that make more sense?
wyattpeak 8y ago
>Regressions happen, and the Eternal September is real. Is that a regression, though? I mean the state pre-ES was basically that the unwashed masses weren't able to use a special service for their more-refined betters. To me, it's essentially the difference between a country club and a public park. Certainly, the country club is better maintained and more pleasant for its members than a public park. But there's, at minimum, a strong case to be made that a park that all may use is a greater social good than a country club limited to a few.
- Baeocystin 8y ago
  I think the better analogy would be the origins of the coffee house. https://ineedcoffee.com/the-coffee-house-a-history/ https://ineedcoffee.com/the-coffee-house-a-history/ They rapidly became a place where people from all walks of life could, and did, come for lively discussion. And their rapid increase in popularity caused them to collapse from their own success. Early access to the internet was, by definition, limited to people who were on academic or military networks. But by the time BBS culture came about, it was the thrill of finding like-minded folks from wherever they might be- it was not a culture based on exclusion per se, like what you would find at a country club.
  - wyattpeak 8y ago
    I chose country club specifically because I think there has always been a strong fiction of meritocracy in IT and I was very specifically highlighting the exclusatory nature of the culture. "All walks of life" is a polite fiction. The September in "Eternal September", after all, refers to university intake. "Wherever they might be" is a bit of a cop-out, because they weren't really "wherever", they were in other universities. It wasn't a coffee shop, it was a strongly walled garden which only very specific groups of people could reasonably access.
    - Baeocystin 8y ago
      Anyone with access to a modem could, and did, participate in the BBS era. I had great conversations with people from all walks of life. Not fiction.

xtracto 8y ago

> Regressions happen, and the Eternal September is real. Now that UUCP time has come and gone, I wonder if Usenet might have returned to its once former glory. It would be a really good place for technical conversation.

FPGAhacker 8y ago
Well, it's google groups now, right? It's a decent ready-to-go forum. I only used it for the clojure groups, but then the clj community discovered slack. All that useful topically categorized awesomeness now must be mined from worthless slack logs.
- floren 8y ago
  Usenet still exists independent of Google Groups. Google provides an interface for users to post on Usenet groups, at least until they decide to stop supporting it, but you don't need Google at all to get on Usenet: http://www.eternal-september.org/ http://www.eternal-september.org/

cortesoft 8y ago

But 'Eternal September' describes what happens to a particular platform, as something moves from niche to mainstream. There are new niche things that take their place, but people are often at a point in their lives where they aren't seeking out the new niche stuff anymore.

Baeocystin 8y ago
>There are new niche things that take their place, but people are often at a point in their lives where they aren't seeking out the new niche stuff anymore. Speaking just for myself, here, but this has not been my experience. In my opinion, that interest in the early internet was a niche was essentially orthogonal to what it offered. It just so happened that the mindset of folks who would be attracted to the early offerings was a small portion of the overall population. But it wasn't the fact that the group was comparatively small that was what was interesting.
- cortesoft 8y ago
  Right, but my point was that during that early internet period, you just happened to be in the niche group that was on it. There are new niche things out there now, but you aren't in the right group to be in that niche anymore.
  - Baeocystin 8y ago
    Re-reading what I wrote, I see that I neglected to mention the other salient aspect- I don't find it difficult to find niche interests nowaday at all. Thanks to the internet, finding like-minded individuals for just about anything has never been easier. But it's a different feeling than it was before, because of how things work. And some of that works against the process of forming smaller, tight-knit communities than how it used to be. And it's ok to lament loss. Does that make more sense?

wyattpeak 8y ago

>Regressions happen, and the Eternal September is real. Is that a regression, though? I mean the state pre-ES was basically that the unwashed masses weren't able to use a special service for their more-refined betters. To me, it's essentially the difference between a country club and a public park. Certainly, the country club is better maintained and more pleasant for its members than a public park. But there's, at minimum, a strong case to be made that a park that all may use is a greater social good than a country club limited to a few.

Baeocystin 8y ago
I think the better analogy would be the origins of the coffee house. https://ineedcoffee.com/the-coffee-house-a-history/ https://ineedcoffee.com/the-coffee-house-a-history/ They rapidly became a place where people from all walks of life could, and did, come for lively discussion. And their rapid increase in popularity caused them to collapse from their own success. Early access to the internet was, by definition, limited to people who were on academic or military networks. But by the time BBS culture came about, it was the thrill of finding like-minded folks from wherever they might be- it was not a culture based on exclusion per se, like what you would find at a country club.
- wyattpeak 8y ago
  I chose country club specifically because I think there has always been a strong fiction of meritocracy in IT and I was very specifically highlighting the exclusatory nature of the culture. "All walks of life" is a polite fiction. The September in "Eternal September", after all, refers to university intake. "Wherever they might be" is a bit of a cop-out, because they weren't really "wherever", they were in other universities. It wasn't a coffee shop, it was a strongly walled garden which only very specific groups of people could reasonably access.
  - Baeocystin 8y ago
    Anyone with access to a modem could, and did, participate in the BBS era. I had great conversations with people from all walks of life. Not fiction.