6 ms·

The Price 20-Somethings Pay to Live in the City

51 points by fun2have 16y ago

rospaya 16y ago
So I guess the rent is too damn high?
tibbon 16y ago
My summary and thoughts: Living in NYC is amazingly expensive. When you're lower on the totem pole of the working world, your income doesn't reflect this greater expense on a percentage basis. Sometimes its worth it in the long term for additional opportunities and later career progress, but for millions it likely turns out to be a net loss compared to living somewhere more reasonable. Its very possible to have an unpaid internship (whereas you might get paid minimally for the same internship in other cities) that lasts for months , where the employer has no intention of providing the possibility of fulltime employment at the end. This is exceedingly common in the recording industry. Everyone wants an intern, but no one cares to pay the best ones a fulltime wage afterward. Your living expenses may easily be 2-4x higher than where you came from.
- ceejayoz 16y ago
  Unpaid internship in NYC = way to weed out qualified folks who don't come from money already.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - rdtsc 16y ago
    So basically unpaid internship are just class filters ?
    - ceejayoz 16y ago
      In a lot of industries, I believe that to deliberately be the case.
      - mpk 16y ago
        > In a lot of industries, I believe that to deliberately be the case. Maybe a simpler way of looking at this might be that given a large pool of potential applicants the incentive to actually pay these people simply isn't there if a large enough percentage of the pool doesn't require payment. It's still the same brutally unfair result, but it doesn't require looking for conspiracy.
  - electricocean 16y ago
    Not necessarily true. I saved up enough money from an old job and sold my car to move to NY two years ago. I took an unpaid internship that lasted 2 months. Was hired on as freelance and eventually bumped to salary.
    - ceejayoz 16y ago
      It's sorta like politics. Sure, third-party candidates can make it through at times, but the system is heavily weighted against them.
- tzs 16y ago
  Aren't unpaid internships illegal? http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html
  - ceejayoz 16y ago
    So's medical marijuana, on a Federal level. No enforcement, no effect.
  - joshhart 16y ago
    Not if you can get at least one credit at your college/university.
  - starpilot 16y ago
    No. As the article you link says: ...[there are] six federal legal criteria that must be satisfied for internships to be unpaid. Among those criteria are that the internship should be similar to the training given in a vocational school or academic institution, that the intern does not displace regular paid workers and that the employer “derives no immediate advantage” from the intern’s activities — in other words, it’s largely a benevolent contribution to the intern.
    - natrius 16y ago
      The vast majority of unpaid internships don't meet those criteria.
    - tzs 16y ago
      Very few internships provide "no immediate advantage" to the company where the intern is working. For instance, if you were a publisher, and had an intern read unsolicited manuscripts and rate them, and then used those ratings to decide which manuscripts to read, that would be questionable. If, on the other hand, the intern were told to read the manuscripts that have already been accepted and the ones that have already been rejected, so as to learn what makes a good manuscript, that would be OK. That's not benefiting you--it is just providing training to the intern. Essentially, from what I've read, it seems that what you need to give an unpaid intern is work that you don't actually need to have done, and have no use for.
- dkasper 16y ago
  My story is kind of the opposite, but I wouldn't have the savings to be working full time on my startup without doing the shared room thing for a year. And it was $600 a month in SF too, and that was for a room with friends who were willing to give me a good deal.
- jseliger 16y ago
  Indeed. Penelope Trunk writes about this: http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/06/11/do-you-belong-in-nyc-take-the-test/ http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/06/11/do-you-belong-in-ny... and http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/10/im-moving-out-of-new-york-city http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/10/im-moving-out-of-ne... . If you want to live in New York City, you're effectively shortening your personal "runway" to use Paul Graham's term.
deleted 16y ago
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- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
jim_h 16y ago
Living in NYC isn't too bad compared to other big cities, unless you only think of NYC as Manhattan. The other boroughs offer cheaper (and safe) rent as long as you are willing to search a bit.
- alextp 16y ago
  From the article, 600 for a bedroom in the notoriously dangerous Bedford-Stuyvesant doesn't sound like either Manhattan or cheap.
  - jim_h 16y ago
    Have you been to Bed-Stuy recently? It's actually pretty decent and getting gentrified. Cafes, open eateries, fruit shops mixed in the regular stores. 'Checkers' burgers even opened there recently. I know, since I've been there lot this summer. I also have been watching the crime maps since I'm doing research for house hunting. Crimes in the Bed-Stuy are rare compared to the surrounding areas.
- TheBranca18 16y ago
  Four years ago, my best friend and I were paying 1850 for a two bedroom, one bath in Astoria. It had cockroaches, the power would go out if we plugged too many things in, and it was four avenue blocks from the train. I'm not saying living in New York is bad, especially if you're single in your 20's, but financially it made no sense to me and I'm glad I moved.
- jgv 16y ago
  This is an important distinction. NYC != Manhattan. There are 4 other boroughs to explore and in post-9/11 NYC I find the outer boroughs are simply more interesting. Manhattan has become this caricature of its former self which I frankly find to be boring. Another note (somewhat unrelated to your comment). I am 23 so I consider most of the cases to be my peers (although I have a job). I'm in a living situation similar to the people featured in this article. I have three roommates and I pay less than 600 for a large room in a large apartment in East Williamsburg. The one thing is, I'm not complaining. I'm also not sure if a majority of the people in this piece are. Living in Manhattan is just not a reasonable, or an enjoyable, option IMO.
vaksel 16y ago
those prices seem kinda low my sister is moving to nyc at the end of the month, and all the places she found were 2-3K/mo...she'll most likely go with this one place that's $1,250/mo with a roommate for a 2bdr apartment. Granted she is set on living in Manhattan(Midtown) near her job, so it's a lot more expensive there. But that's why her job pays her 15-20K more compared to what she'd get outside the city
- ghurlman 16y ago
  She is also probably getting a full apartment, and notsomuch just a room.
- starkness 16y ago
  There's a significant price differentiation between living in Manhattan and in other boroughs. One really can't lump them all together. I have friends that pay $6-700/mo for rooms in reasonable apartments in convenient locations in Brooklyn (e.g. off the Lorimer L stop, less than 10 mins from Union Square). Rents have also significantly gone down in NYC in the past two years. I had mine decreased by 12% last year and it hasn't gone up since.
  - CognitiveLens 16y ago
    Even within Manhattan there can be huge differences across the island for otherwise comparable properties, particularly as you go north of the park.
  - gnosis 16y ago
    10 minutes to Lorimer? It's 20 minutes minimum just to Bedford. And that's when the trains are running frequently and efficiently. There have been plenty of times when the L train's taken over an hour to get just to Bedford. And that doesn't include the walk from the station to your home, which could easily be 10 or more minutes away from the L stop.
shorttime 16y ago
Obvious news is obvious. It's all economics.
cletus 16y ago
What I'm curious about is why no mention is made of living across the Hudson (ie New Jersey). I know New Yorkers like to look down on NJ and I guess the Times is complicit in that but the PATH trains make the commutes to Midtown and Downtown much shorter than the outer boroughs. Plus NJ has lower taxes. And no "Amazon tax" (at least not yet). So perhaps this article should be titled "the price 20somethings pay not to appear uncool", for which I have very litte sympathy.
- zavulon 16y ago
  It's still a considerable commute.. restaurants/bars/clubs are not nearly as good... then there's art galleries/concerts/other events... etc. Not saying it's a bad place to live, just for 20-somethings those things matter a lot.
  - stewiecat 16y ago
    I lived in Hoboken and worked in Manhattan for years with a shorter commute than most folks who either lived in Manhattan or Brooklyn. 10 minutes apartment->PATH, 11 mins PATH (Hoboken to WTC), 10 minutes WTC-> Wall & Water sts.
- gnosis 16y ago
  Where in NJ? Hoboken, Jersey City, Newark, and Newport are pretty crime-ridden. What neighborhoods would you recommend that are within a 5 to 10 minute walk from a PATH train stop, that are cheaper than Manhattan, and also safe?
  - cletus 16y ago
    Hoboken, Jersey City, Newark, and Newport are pretty crime-ridden. I believe that much like the crime stories about NYC, the crime situation is overstated and/or outdated. Personally I'd suggest around Hoboken or Grove St (in Jersey City).
  - stewiecat 16y ago
    Hoboken is crime-ridden?? I spent 6 years there from 1996-2002 and have friends that still live there and can say that crime is not an issue in almost all of Hoboken. Sure, if you go to the projects on the back end of Hoboken things get rougher, but I never, ever felt unsafe there. Even JC has cleaned up a lot, especially the areas by the PATH trains like Exchange place and Newport.
bootload 16y ago
"... he pays $500 a month and has a 10-by-6-foot bedroom. But as for the neighborhood, he is less enthusiastic. ..." Given the demand and patchy supply, is there any service that caters to this market allowing renters to choose a place to match size, price & location?
sedachv 16y ago
"In Bushwick, I never really felt threatened. Now, the sounds around are more aggressive. I’ll see 20 guys ride by on motorcycles" The whole article is hilarious, but this is especially funny. Sometimes I see 20 people ride by in cars. Hide!
- gnosis 16y ago
  Cars don't tend to be nearly as loud.
  - akgerber 16y ago
    I saw crews of idiots doing wheelies up and down the street when I lived in Harlem on 146th St. and didn't feel particularly threatened.
zavulon 16y ago
> “We had a mouse,” she acknowledged. “But if you live on the Lower East Side, you’ll always have a mouse.” I live on Lower East Side, and I've never had a mouse. Having a cat helps ;)
run4yourlives 16y ago
Sorry, but I stopped reading at "his mom pays his rent".
- mtsmith85 16y ago
  I understand the downvotes -- after all that someone's parents pay for their rents shouldn't necessarily disqualify that person's viewpoint, right? But, after living here for almost a decade, after paying my way through NYU ($100k to go! Wheee!), after watching disgusting situations (like an 24 year old account "executive's" mother call her boss to complain about the hours she was working), I have to strain every muscle in my body not to immediately disqualify kid's (because the good majority are just that, kids) who's parents pay the rent.
lkrubner 16y ago
(responding to cletus about New Jersey) There is a cluster effect to our social lives that is just as important as the clustering effect that puts the epi-center of certain industries in particular geographic spots (for instance, the movie industry is centered in LA, the software startup industry is centered in the Valley, etc). To be specific: a lot of the parties that I want to go to are in Brooklyn, but none of them are in New Jersey. If I go to a party in Brooklyn, and then at 3 AM I am heading home, then for me getting home is just a 15-20 minute taxi ride. Whereas if I live in New Jersey, getting home from Brooklyn is at least an hour of trains and buses and walking. This point would be moot if there were an equal number of parties in New Jersey that I wanted to go to (and therefore getting home to Brooklyn, from New Jersey, would also be a big ordeal) but there are none. I've never been invited to a party in New Jersey that I wanted to go to. Even when I lived in New Jersey, all the social events that I wanted to go to were either in Manhattan or Brooklyn. So, for me, it makes a lot more sense to live in Brooklyn. I could maybe see living in New Jersey if the rents were dramatically lower, but they are not. I have a little studio apartment in Brooklyn that I pay $1,100 a month for, and in New Jersey I might pay $900 for an apartment of the same size. The extra $200 a month is just not worth it to me, not when the real cost involves being an hour further away from the social life that I want to have. Not that I'm a 20-something, but I assume the logic is the same for them as it is for me.
iopuy 16y ago
Was it just me or was the author's continual use of "Mr. Cavin Quezada" incredibility annoying? Please switch it up some....Mr. Quezada......Cavin...... anything would be better than repeating "Mr. Cavin Quezada." 1) "Mr. Cavin Quezada, who works as an unpaid intern...." 2) "Before this I was living in a loft in Bushwick,” said Mr. Cavin Quezada.... 3) "Mr. Cavin Quezada often works until 2 a.m......" 4) "...I’ve given her enough details for her to worry,” Mr. Cavin Quezada said. 5) Mr. Cavin Quezada’s situation mirrors the way....

51 points by fun2have 16y ago

So I guess the rent is too damn high?

My summary and thoughts: Living in NYC is amazingly expensive. When you're lower on the totem pole of the working world, your income doesn't reflect this greater expense on a percentage basis. Sometimes its worth it in the long term for additional opportunities and later career progress, but for millions it likely turns out to be a net loss compared to living somewhere more reasonable. Its very possible to have an unpaid internship (whereas you might get paid minimally for the same internship in other cities) that lasts for months , where the employer has no intention of providing the possibility of fulltime employment at the end. This is exceedingly common in the recording industry. Everyone wants an intern, but no one cares to pay the best ones a fulltime wage afterward. Your living expenses may easily be 2-4x higher than where you came from.

ceejayoz 16y ago
Unpaid internship in NYC = way to weed out qualified folks who don't come from money already.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- rdtsc 16y ago
  So basically unpaid internship are just class filters ?
  - ceejayoz 16y ago
    In a lot of industries, I believe that to deliberately be the case.
    - mpk 16y ago
      > In a lot of industries, I believe that to deliberately be the case. Maybe a simpler way of looking at this might be that given a large pool of potential applicants the incentive to actually pay these people simply isn't there if a large enough percentage of the pool doesn't require payment. It's still the same brutally unfair result, but it doesn't require looking for conspiracy.
- electricocean 16y ago
  Not necessarily true. I saved up enough money from an old job and sold my car to move to NY two years ago. I took an unpaid internship that lasted 2 months. Was hired on as freelance and eventually bumped to salary.
  - ceejayoz 16y ago
    It's sorta like politics. Sure, third-party candidates can make it through at times, but the system is heavily weighted against them.
tzs 16y ago
Aren't unpaid internships illegal? http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html
- ceejayoz 16y ago
  So's medical marijuana, on a Federal level. No enforcement, no effect.
- joshhart 16y ago
  Not if you can get at least one credit at your college/university.
- starpilot 16y ago
  No. As the article you link says: ...[there are] six federal legal criteria that must be satisfied for internships to be unpaid. Among those criteria are that the internship should be similar to the training given in a vocational school or academic institution, that the intern does not displace regular paid workers and that the employer “derives no immediate advantage” from the intern’s activities — in other words, it’s largely a benevolent contribution to the intern.
  - natrius 16y ago
    The vast majority of unpaid internships don't meet those criteria.
  - tzs 16y ago
    Very few internships provide "no immediate advantage" to the company where the intern is working. For instance, if you were a publisher, and had an intern read unsolicited manuscripts and rate them, and then used those ratings to decide which manuscripts to read, that would be questionable. If, on the other hand, the intern were told to read the manuscripts that have already been accepted and the ones that have already been rejected, so as to learn what makes a good manuscript, that would be OK. That's not benefiting you--it is just providing training to the intern. Essentially, from what I've read, it seems that what you need to give an unpaid intern is work that you don't actually need to have done, and have no use for.
dkasper 16y ago
My story is kind of the opposite, but I wouldn't have the savings to be working full time on my startup without doing the shared room thing for a year. And it was $600 a month in SF too, and that was for a room with friends who were willing to give me a good deal.
jseliger 16y ago
Indeed. Penelope Trunk writes about this: http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/06/11/do-you-belong-in-nyc-take-the-test/ http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/06/11/do-you-belong-in-ny... and http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/10/im-moving-out-of-new-york-city http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/10/im-moving-out-of-ne... . If you want to live in New York City, you're effectively shortening your personal "runway" to use Paul Graham's term.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

deleted 16y ago
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jim_h 16y ago

Living in NYC isn't too bad compared to other big cities, unless you only think of NYC as Manhattan. The other boroughs offer cheaper (and safe) rent as long as you are willing to search a bit.

alextp 16y ago
From the article, 600 for a bedroom in the notoriously dangerous Bedford-Stuyvesant doesn't sound like either Manhattan or cheap.
- jim_h 16y ago
  Have you been to Bed-Stuy recently? It's actually pretty decent and getting gentrified. Cafes, open eateries, fruit shops mixed in the regular stores. 'Checkers' burgers even opened there recently. I know, since I've been there lot this summer. I also have been watching the crime maps since I'm doing research for house hunting. Crimes in the Bed-Stuy are rare compared to the surrounding areas.
TheBranca18 16y ago
Four years ago, my best friend and I were paying 1850 for a two bedroom, one bath in Astoria. It had cockroaches, the power would go out if we plugged too many things in, and it was four avenue blocks from the train. I'm not saying living in New York is bad, especially if you're single in your 20's, but financially it made no sense to me and I'm glad I moved.
jgv 16y ago
This is an important distinction. NYC != Manhattan. There are 4 other boroughs to explore and in post-9/11 NYC I find the outer boroughs are simply more interesting. Manhattan has become this caricature of its former self which I frankly find to be boring. Another note (somewhat unrelated to your comment). I am 23 so I consider most of the cases to be my peers (although I have a job). I'm in a living situation similar to the people featured in this article. I have three roommates and I pay less than 600 for a large room in a large apartment in East Williamsburg. The one thing is, I'm not complaining. I'm also not sure if a majority of the people in this piece are. Living in Manhattan is just not a reasonable, or an enjoyable, option IMO.

vaksel 16y ago

those prices seem kinda low my sister is moving to nyc at the end of the month, and all the places she found were 2-3K/mo...she'll most likely go with this one place that's $1,250/mo with a roommate for a 2bdr apartment. Granted she is set on living in Manhattan(Midtown) near her job, so it's a lot more expensive there. But that's why her job pays her 15-20K more compared to what she'd get outside the city

ghurlman 16y ago
She is also probably getting a full apartment, and notsomuch just a room.
starkness 16y ago
There's a significant price differentiation between living in Manhattan and in other boroughs. One really can't lump them all together. I have friends that pay $6-700/mo for rooms in reasonable apartments in convenient locations in Brooklyn (e.g. off the Lorimer L stop, less than 10 mins from Union Square). Rents have also significantly gone down in NYC in the past two years. I had mine decreased by 12% last year and it hasn't gone up since.
- CognitiveLens 16y ago
  Even within Manhattan there can be huge differences across the island for otherwise comparable properties, particularly as you go north of the park.
- gnosis 16y ago
  10 minutes to Lorimer? It's 20 minutes minimum just to Bedford. And that's when the trains are running frequently and efficiently. There have been plenty of times when the L train's taken over an hour to get just to Bedford. And that doesn't include the walk from the station to your home, which could easily be 10 or more minutes away from the L stop.

shorttime 16y ago

Obvious news is obvious. It's all economics.

cletus 16y ago

What I'm curious about is why no mention is made of living across the Hudson (ie New Jersey). I know New Yorkers like to look down on NJ and I guess the Times is complicit in that but the PATH trains make the commutes to Midtown and Downtown much shorter than the outer boroughs. Plus NJ has lower taxes. And no "Amazon tax" (at least not yet). So perhaps this article should be titled "the price 20somethings pay not to appear uncool", for which I have very litte sympathy.

zavulon 16y ago
It's still a considerable commute.. restaurants/bars/clubs are not nearly as good... then there's art galleries/concerts/other events... etc. Not saying it's a bad place to live, just for 20-somethings those things matter a lot.
- stewiecat 16y ago
  I lived in Hoboken and worked in Manhattan for years with a shorter commute than most folks who either lived in Manhattan or Brooklyn. 10 minutes apartment->PATH, 11 mins PATH (Hoboken to WTC), 10 minutes WTC-> Wall & Water sts.
gnosis 16y ago
Where in NJ? Hoboken, Jersey City, Newark, and Newport are pretty crime-ridden. What neighborhoods would you recommend that are within a 5 to 10 minute walk from a PATH train stop, that are cheaper than Manhattan, and also safe?
- cletus 16y ago
  Hoboken, Jersey City, Newark, and Newport are pretty crime-ridden. I believe that much like the crime stories about NYC, the crime situation is overstated and/or outdated. Personally I'd suggest around Hoboken or Grove St (in Jersey City).
- stewiecat 16y ago
  Hoboken is crime-ridden?? I spent 6 years there from 1996-2002 and have friends that still live there and can say that crime is not an issue in almost all of Hoboken. Sure, if you go to the projects on the back end of Hoboken things get rougher, but I never, ever felt unsafe there. Even JC has cleaned up a lot, especially the areas by the PATH trains like Exchange place and Newport.

bootload 16y ago

"... he pays $500 a month and has a 10-by-6-foot bedroom. But as for the neighborhood, he is less enthusiastic. ..." Given the demand and patchy supply, is there any service that caters to this market allowing renters to choose a place to match size, price & location?

sedachv 16y ago

"In Bushwick, I never really felt threatened. Now, the sounds around are more aggressive. I’ll see 20 guys ride by on motorcycles" The whole article is hilarious, but this is especially funny. Sometimes I see 20 people ride by in cars. Hide!

gnosis 16y ago
Cars don't tend to be nearly as loud.
- akgerber 16y ago
  I saw crews of idiots doing wheelies up and down the street when I lived in Harlem on 146th St. and didn't feel particularly threatened.

zavulon 16y ago

> “We had a mouse,” she acknowledged. “But if you live on the Lower East Side, you’ll always have a mouse.” I live on Lower East Side, and I've never had a mouse. Having a cat helps ;)

run4yourlives 16y ago

Sorry, but I stopped reading at "his mom pays his rent".

mtsmith85 16y ago
I understand the downvotes -- after all that someone's parents pay for their rents shouldn't necessarily disqualify that person's viewpoint, right? But, after living here for almost a decade, after paying my way through NYU ($100k to go! Wheee!), after watching disgusting situations (like an 24 year old account "executive's" mother call her boss to complain about the hours she was working), I have to strain every muscle in my body not to immediately disqualify kid's (because the good majority are just that, kids) who's parents pay the rent.

lkrubner 16y ago

(responding to cletus about New Jersey) There is a cluster effect to our social lives that is just as important as the clustering effect that puts the epi-center of certain industries in particular geographic spots (for instance, the movie industry is centered in LA, the software startup industry is centered in the Valley, etc). To be specific: a lot of the parties that I want to go to are in Brooklyn, but none of them are in New Jersey. If I go to a party in Brooklyn, and then at 3 AM I am heading home, then for me getting home is just a 15-20 minute taxi ride. Whereas if I live in New Jersey, getting home from Brooklyn is at least an hour of trains and buses and walking. This point would be moot if there were an equal number of parties in New Jersey that I wanted to go to (and therefore getting home to Brooklyn, from New Jersey, would also be a big ordeal) but there are none. I've never been invited to a party in New Jersey that I wanted to go to. Even when I lived in New Jersey, all the social events that I wanted to go to were either in Manhattan or Brooklyn. So, for me, it makes a lot more sense to live in Brooklyn. I could maybe see living in New Jersey if the rents were dramatically lower, but they are not. I have a little studio apartment in Brooklyn that I pay $1,100 a month for, and in New Jersey I might pay $900 for an apartment of the same size. The extra $200 a month is just not worth it to me, not when the real cost involves being an hour further away from the social life that I want to have. Not that I'm a 20-something, but I assume the logic is the same for them as it is for me.

iopuy 16y ago

Was it just me or was the author's continual use of "Mr. Cavin Quezada" incredibility annoying? Please switch it up some....Mr. Quezada......Cavin...... anything would be better than repeating "Mr. Cavin Quezada." 1) "Mr. Cavin Quezada, who works as an unpaid intern...." 2) "Before this I was living in a loft in Bushwick,” said Mr. Cavin Quezada.... 3) "Mr. Cavin Quezada often works until 2 a.m......" 4) "...I’ve given her enough details for her to worry,” Mr. Cavin Quezada said. 5) Mr. Cavin Quezada’s situation mirrors the way....