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My main focus is on "productivity" applications and CRUD, not so much documents. One doesn't typically index applications in a Google-esque way. I don't propose
by tabtab 8y ago
My main focus is on "productivity" applications and CRUD, not so much documents. One doesn't typically index applications in a Google-esque way. I don't propose we throw out all the Web, but rather create (or extend?) standards for the things HTML/DOM/CSS do poorly. My apologies for not making the scope clearer. (Maybe that's why I got a "-1" score.)
And, there may still be a markup language with text as text and other semantic info. The new standard may be able to use existing HTML tags, but add supplement attributes to control precise placement, and other features HTML/CSS lacks.
By the way, Google can index PDF documents reasonably well, depending on how the PDF was created. This is evidence that precise control over layout doesn't necessarily prevent indexing and summarizing of text and content.
I will also point out that many graphic designers are frustrated with CSS also because they envision a concept, but have a hard time getting web pages to do what precisely what they envision. It's why Flash was popular with them: the proverbial paint strokes wind up exactly where you put the brush down on the canvas. The artists may still want their work to adjust to the end-user screen size, but they want to control precisely HOW it adjusts: they want to write the size adjustment formulas themselves (or select among multiple API's), not rely on browser programmers and their variation on the CSS engine, which often differ across browser brands and versions.
- goto11 8y agoCan't you already do everything you propose with the HTML canvas element then? But I can't see why you would want to render something as mundane as a CRUD UI through such a complex and slow scheme. For perhaps a game or some truly unconventional UI, it makes sense to use SVG or canvas to render it. But then you also want the rendering logic on the client (in JavaScript) because it would be far too slow to round-trip to the server for each mouse movement. Btw. Google can index PDF files only because the PDF format contain text in the form of character strings, not as drawings or bitmaps, as you suggest.
- tabtab 8y agoI haven't seen a good realistic example of the canvas element doing what I expect. Didn't you even admit "canvas" is overly complex and slow, or did I interpret that wrong? I'm not sure what you mean about JavaScript either. Perhaps an example? As far as character strings, I don't propose rendering text via vectors. But PDF's do control text position far better than HTML/CSS can or does. I realize there's a lot of details to define and work out, but HN is probably not the place to iron all that out.
- goto11 8y agoNo I don't think canvas itself is overly complex and slow. Canvas is fine when you need to go beyond what is possible with HTML and CSS. I'm saying your proposal to perform rendering on the server and just stream pixels to the client is going to be overly complex and slow. Just imagine how you would implement a hover effect using this scheme. Or screen resizing. Or scrolling... > But PDF's do control text position far better than HTML/CSS can or does. You can place text precisely using absolute positioning in CSS. It is just rarely a desirable approach since the layout will not adapt to screen size.
- tabtab 8y agoIt would generally be vectors sent, not pixels. If the kit or standard came with decent and common GUI/CRUD widgets and related attributes, then one would not typically need to re-implement hover indicators etc. on the client. (There might be a "hoverbordercolor=blue" attribute, for example to override the default hover color. And normally you wouldn't mess with the default.) It shouldn't be slow and bandwidth intensive if you stick with typical and common stuff for productivity applications. If one values eye-candy and fancy animation above productivity and reliability, then they can use the existing standards. I don't propose replacing everything, just supplementing and/or extending for work-oriented stuff. And CSS's existing absolute positioning is not absolute in my experience. I get different results in diff browser brands/versions/OS-settings. Screen size adapting was covered in another sub-thread. People are so used to thinking in terms of HTML/CSS that I have a hard time explaining what I have in mind. I may need to make a more thorough write-up.
- goto11 8y agoYou can already send vector graphics to the browser in the form of SVG.
- tabtab 8y agoI've yet to see it used effective to give us desktop-like GUI's. My experience is SVG lacks common GUI widgets, and text positioning is still inconsistent across browser brand/versions/OS-settings. Downloading tons of JavaScript to emulate typical GUI's gets right back to fat-client problems created by current browser "standards". Maybe someday these weak points will be solved, but so far it doesn't seem ready. SVG is meant to draw pictures, not manage GUI's.