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The ones courts which governed the relevant company were willing to issue warrants on behalf of — that is, those our regular legal and political systems decide

The ones courts which governed the relevant company were willing to issue warrants on behalf of — that is, those our regular legal and political systems decide on. For a big multinational like Apple, that’s probably a fair number. But it’s also harder to hide they’re doing that, and let’s us bring pressure on them politically for their political misdeeds. In the end, it’ll be major powers who can — US, Europe, China, etc. My point is that it’s never going to be the case that technologists get to unilaterally decide that for all of society. My proposal is just to bring phones into line with existing warrants: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19036408 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19036408 But by doing so, technologists have the political cover to push back on spy agency excesses and abuses.

pjc50 8y ago
So you support China being able to hack any phone globally with a warrant in a Chinese court? Isn't that literally what Huawei are accused of facilitating?
- FakeComments 8y ago
  No, I support China being able to spend an appreciable amount of time to crack each phone they have physical possession of, following a court order. I never suggested the ability for remote compromise (what Huawei is accused of), and my exact point is that we can create a cost to cracking each phone — in hashing power and time spent — if we compromise on the topic. No such cost exists now, because they achieve access via other means. The combination of requiring physical possession and appreciable hashing time per crack is a two-layered response to mass-surveillance. That’s the whole basis of the compromise I’m proposing: calling their bluff, and enabling warrant cracks as political cover to shut down mass surveillance and cracking as unnecessary.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    The "hashing time per crack" reminds me of the old 48-bit encryption which was mandated to have short, crackable keys. Or even the previous attempt at doing this with the "LEAF". Are you proposing some sort of work function within the crypto enclave? ie you leave the device brute-forcing for a few days and it spits out the key? The "appreciable time" is going to be subject to constant downward pressure, both politically and technologically. > political cover to shut down mass surveillance and compromise as unnecessary Mass surveillance is not going to go away without huge cultural reform of the security services. They don't take concessions.
    - 794CD01 8y ago
      >Mass surveillance is not going to go away without huge cultural reform of the security services. They don't take concessions. FakeComments was mostly talking about targeted surveillance, but I agree with him/her in spirit, since I believe that mass surveillance is not going to go away. Ever. So you can either yell futilely into the wind as it happens over your objections, up to, including, and perhaps going beyond a swarm of camera-bearing networked nanodrones coating the planet, or you can try to nudge it towards happening on slightly preferable terms.
      - basilgohar 8y ago
        >"It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt." – John Philpot Curran: Speech upon the Right of Election for Lord Mayor of Dublin, 1790. (Speeches. Dublin, 1808.) as quoted in Bartlett's Familiar Quotations [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Philpot_Curran#Quotations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Philpot_Curran#Quotations
        794CD01 8y ago
        Anyone can find a quote that says anything. >"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever." - George Orwell: 1984, 1949. Welp, guess that's it for freedom. A person from the past wrote something. No more for us to do here.
      - int_19h 8y ago
        It's not going to happen on "slightly preferable terms". Either those with political power in society want surveillance, or they don't. If they do, they'll take all that they can get, and the only thing cooperating with them will do is make it all happen faster - the moment you provide a "compromise" surveillance scheme to them on a silver platter is the moment when they'll start devising how to get around the remaining limits.
  - Zecar 8y ago
    > my exact point is that we can create a cost to cracking each phone — in hashing power and time spent This is not at all how encryption or security works
    - FakeComments 8y ago
      It’s exactly how it works: You create a hash chain, then use the final result as an encryption key of your secret (in this case, the key for the data), then store only the start of the chain and encrypted secret. The only way to retrieve the secret is to recompute all the hashes, from the start, to recreate the key and decrypt the data. So it’s secure unless you believe there’s a weakness in the underlying encryption or hash function. Further, you can parallelize this via encrypting the start of chains with other chains — giving a significant advantage to the chain creator: they can do 1000 chains in parallel, but unlocking requires decrypting them sequentially. At that ratio, if you want decryption to take a month of steady hashing, you need only do a little under 1 hour of hashing yourself. 1 hour of 1 GPU is about a dollar of expense, and has more than 1000 parallel tracks. My suggestion would be that Apple create a chain for each phone and then load it with that phone specific wrapping key — which it uses to return the actual encryption key wrapped in. The only way to decrypt that key is get the necessary information from Apple and a signed request so the SE will emit the encrypted key at all.
      - Zecar 8y ago
        Yeah uhh hey I appreciate your enthusiasm but this literally is not how modern public key encryption works, or will ever be changed to work. All ciphers in general use don't have any sort of a realistic time-bound to being cracked or computed
        FakeComments 8y ago
        Yeah. I appreciate you trying to correct me, but I never was saying that this was an instance of “public key encryption”, whichever version you mean. This is a scheme by which you can intentionally create a key that can be re-generated in a fixed amount of time, and use it as part of normal symmetric encryption to protect a secret. One usage of that is creating intentionally crackable schemes, such as protecting other signing keys in a way you can later crack if you need to. This allows a device, such as a phone, to emit a masked secret that we have cryptographic guarantees it still takes time to recover. Hashchains for time locking is a studied mechanism, and though it predates crypto currencies, it’s deployed as a mechanism in several kinds of applications there. A second usage is in storing paper copies of master signing keys in a safe, since the key cannot be exposed in the event of a robbery before a certain period of time — giving you time to rekey your system. (Generally, people use multipart keys instead, because they’re less cumbersome to recover; however, if you only have one secure location — multipart keys don’t help. Hash chains still do.) So it’s literally how (part of) modern cryptography works.

pjc50 8y ago

So you support China being able to hack any phone globally with a warrant in a Chinese court? Isn't that literally what Huawei are accused of facilitating?

FakeComments 8y ago
No, I support China being able to spend an appreciable amount of time to crack each phone they have physical possession of, following a court order. I never suggested the ability for remote compromise (what Huawei is accused of), and my exact point is that we can create a cost to cracking each phone — in hashing power and time spent — if we compromise on the topic. No such cost exists now, because they achieve access via other means. The combination of requiring physical possession and appreciable hashing time per crack is a two-layered response to mass-surveillance. That’s the whole basis of the compromise I’m proposing: calling their bluff, and enabling warrant cracks as political cover to shut down mass surveillance and cracking as unnecessary.
- pjc50 8y ago
  The "hashing time per crack" reminds me of the old 48-bit encryption which was mandated to have short, crackable keys. Or even the previous attempt at doing this with the "LEAF". Are you proposing some sort of work function within the crypto enclave? ie you leave the device brute-forcing for a few days and it spits out the key? The "appreciable time" is going to be subject to constant downward pressure, both politically and technologically. > political cover to shut down mass surveillance and compromise as unnecessary Mass surveillance is not going to go away without huge cultural reform of the security services. They don't take concessions.
  - 794CD01 8y ago
    >Mass surveillance is not going to go away without huge cultural reform of the security services. They don't take concessions. FakeComments was mostly talking about targeted surveillance, but I agree with him/her in spirit, since I believe that mass surveillance is not going to go away. Ever. So you can either yell futilely into the wind as it happens over your objections, up to, including, and perhaps going beyond a swarm of camera-bearing networked nanodrones coating the planet, or you can try to nudge it towards happening on slightly preferable terms.
    - basilgohar 8y ago
      >"It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt." – John Philpot Curran: Speech upon the Right of Election for Lord Mayor of Dublin, 1790. (Speeches. Dublin, 1808.) as quoted in Bartlett's Familiar Quotations [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Philpot_Curran#Quotations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Philpot_Curran#Quotations
      - 794CD01 8y ago
        Anyone can find a quote that says anything. >"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever." - George Orwell: 1984, 1949. Welp, guess that's it for freedom. A person from the past wrote something. No more for us to do here.
    - int_19h 8y ago
      It's not going to happen on "slightly preferable terms". Either those with political power in society want surveillance, or they don't. If they do, they'll take all that they can get, and the only thing cooperating with them will do is make it all happen faster - the moment you provide a "compromise" surveillance scheme to them on a silver platter is the moment when they'll start devising how to get around the remaining limits.
- Zecar 8y ago
  > my exact point is that we can create a cost to cracking each phone — in hashing power and time spent This is not at all how encryption or security works
  - FakeComments 8y ago
    It’s exactly how it works: You create a hash chain, then use the final result as an encryption key of your secret (in this case, the key for the data), then store only the start of the chain and encrypted secret. The only way to retrieve the secret is to recompute all the hashes, from the start, to recreate the key and decrypt the data. So it’s secure unless you believe there’s a weakness in the underlying encryption or hash function. Further, you can parallelize this via encrypting the start of chains with other chains — giving a significant advantage to the chain creator: they can do 1000 chains in parallel, but unlocking requires decrypting them sequentially. At that ratio, if you want decryption to take a month of steady hashing, you need only do a little under 1 hour of hashing yourself. 1 hour of 1 GPU is about a dollar of expense, and has more than 1000 parallel tracks. My suggestion would be that Apple create a chain for each phone and then load it with that phone specific wrapping key — which it uses to return the actual encryption key wrapped in. The only way to decrypt that key is get the necessary information from Apple and a signed request so the SE will emit the encrypted key at all.
    - Zecar 8y ago
      Yeah uhh hey I appreciate your enthusiasm but this literally is not how modern public key encryption works, or will ever be changed to work. All ciphers in general use don't have any sort of a realistic time-bound to being cracked or computed
      - FakeComments 8y ago
        Yeah. I appreciate you trying to correct me, but I never was saying that this was an instance of “public key encryption”, whichever version you mean. This is a scheme by which you can intentionally create a key that can be re-generated in a fixed amount of time, and use it as part of normal symmetric encryption to protect a secret. One usage of that is creating intentionally crackable schemes, such as protecting other signing keys in a way you can later crack if you need to. This allows a device, such as a phone, to emit a masked secret that we have cryptographic guarantees it still takes time to recover. Hashchains for time locking is a studied mechanism, and though it predates crypto currencies, it’s deployed as a mechanism in several kinds of applications there. A second usage is in storing paper copies of master signing keys in a safe, since the key cannot be exposed in the event of a robbery before a certain period of time — giving you time to rekey your system. (Generally, people use multipart keys instead, because they’re less cumbersome to recover; however, if you only have one secure location — multipart keys don’t help. Hash chains still do.) So it’s literally how (part of) modern cryptography works.