5 ms·

Chilling isn't my takeaway. It's that Apple take the threat of surreptitious data gathering seriously and enforces its rules for other companies to that effect.

yholio 8y ago
It's either that, or they employed their market dominance to strike at their competitor. Without a public regulator that fines both Facebook and Apple for their respective abuses, we will never know which.
- strict9 8y ago
  A public regulator of tech oligopolies is a great idea. Until that happens we have few choices in whom we chose to trust. Apple is no corporate saint but for now it is the best of the lot because of its business model.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    You really trust the government to regulate tech fairly?
    - ceejayoz 8y ago
      I trust them ("them" being developed-world democracies; obviously there are more concerns with, say, the Saudis) more than I trust tech to self-regulate. You're not going to get a self-imposed GDPR.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        But private corporations also can’t forceable take away your freedom and your property. If I have the choice between giving the government more power and private companies. I worry a lot more about government power.
        ceejayoz 8y ago
        > But private corporations also can’t forceable take away your freedom and your property. Sure they can. GDPR was necessarily because tech has largely obliterated the right to privacy online, with like buttons, analytics, ad networks, etc.
        scarface74 8y ago
        Well considering that the worse that corporations can do with data is sell your privacy compared to the worse that the government can do - throw you in jail if you give them too much power. I’d rather not give government more power. Trump has outright said that he is in favor of jailing journalists for spreading “fake news”. You know if the government passed a law to “protect privacy” they would give themselves an exemption and want a backdoor.
        ceejayoz 8y ago
        You can debate worst-case "the US gets taken over by Nazis" scenarios, but it's also important to consider current use. I find Facebook a far more significant currently active risk to my privacy than I do the government. I'd love to see a GDPR in the US.
        scarface74 8y ago
        I’m not debating the worse case. I’m going by history of how the FBI acted in the 60s during the Civil Rights Area and how it currently acts with the “War on Terror” and the “War on Drugs”. Having a government that is actively hostile to minorities - religious, race, nationality, or sexuality only takes a populist leader who speaks toward their prejudices....
        ceejayoz 8y ago
        Oh, come on. If we're going to go historical, we'll have to include company towns (which Facebook is revisiting as a concept, incidentally) and debt slavery, the Pinkertons machine gunning strikers...
    - strict9 8y ago
      Completely? No. But when it comes to data and privacy I think it'd be better than today's wild west. Who would have thought ten years ago so many people would be willingly give companies a live feed video stream of the inside and outside of your house, along with voice recordings of everything?
      - scarface74 8y ago
        And the government would never use its power to design laws against its enemies in a Democratic society. A Democratic society ruled by the majority never passes laws that discriminate against minorities and is never hostile against minorities....
    - lostlogin 8y ago
      It depends which one.
    - mikestew 8y ago
      Government regulation often comes about as a result of failure to self-regulate. Facebook doesn't care about torches and pitchforks, but your Congressional representative does. Now, were FB (or tech companies in general) smart, they'd self-regulate before the citizenry starts digging in the garden shed for implements. But tech companies, and especially FB lately, aren't smart. And, like the three year olds their maturity reflects, they bitch and moan when the hammer comes down. Well hey, Ayn, I've got an idea: stick a finger to the wind and sort your shit before the Big, Bad Government(tm) comes a-knockin'. Because when they come, shit's going to change and probably not in a way you like. Might as well get out in front of that narrative.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        My congressional representative is spending 2/3rds of his time fundraising. https://bulletin.represent.us/much-time-congress-members-spend-fundraising/ https://bulletin.represent.us/much-time-congress-members-spe... Especially in the south, the only thing they have to do is demonize “them”, wave a bible in one hand and a gun in the other to get re-elected while raising money from corporations. Neither they nor their constituents vote based on “privacy”.
- wan23 8y ago
  Are Facebook and Apple competitors?
  - jannes 8y ago
    iMessage <-> WhatsApp. But that's a pretty minor business segment for Apple...
- AbrahamParangi 8y ago
  I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say Apple and Facebook are competitors. Apple makes its money selling stuff, Facebook by selling attention. That being said, the incentives for Apple to become more like Facebook are quite strong and you can see it in the direction Microsoft has gone with Cortana and in-OS ads.
  - r00fus 8y ago
    So who are you positing as becoming more like Facebook, Apple or Microsoft? Or do you assume that they’re equivalent?
gnomewascool 8y ago
I think OP's stance is something like: Given that Apple has the ability to control what software can and cannot run on your device (to a large extent), this is a praiseworthy use of this power, however, on the whole, it would be preferable for Apple not to have this ability.
- r00fus 8y ago
  Facebook still has this power on android. If you don’t want the protections of apples walled garden feel free to swim in the unregulated waters of android
- pacala 8y ago
  Absolutely! We should have laws protecting our privacy online and offline, from governments and from private entities. We should be able to sue Facebook and their ilk into oblivion. Until then, anyone who stands for privacy is on my side and has my business.
- mikestew 8y ago
  In a world where there are no weasels like FB, constantly trying to see what they can get away with, I too would prefer that Apple not have that ability. But in the world I currently live in, I'll reluctantly side with Apple having that ability. And the instant they use it not to my liking, I can go buy some other brand of phone.
- taurath 8y ago
  How would Apple be able to enforce any of its user privacy policies without having some control? Write the developers a sternly worded letter?
  - gnomewascool 8y ago
    Leave it up to the user (or, possibly, their parents if they're under-age) and give them the tools for maintaining their privacy. For example: Have appropriate app permissions (which we mostly already have). State that only apps within the app store are monitored to be privacy-friendly/"trustworthy", while still allowing a relatively hassle-free way of installing apps from outside it, similarly to how Android does it (except that I don't necessarily trust Google to ensure that the apps within the Play Store are "trustworthy"). Label "untrustworthy" apps (similarly to how F-Droid labels potentially unwanted features). Now, since Apple currently has more intrusive control, I want them to use it for "good", but I don't want them having this power in the first place. As an analogy, if there were policemen stationed on every corner in the city, I'd probably want them to prevent suicidal people from jumping off bridges, but that doesn't mean that I want the policemen to be there. (For the record, I use Android.)

yholio 8y ago

It's either that, or they employed their market dominance to strike at their competitor. Without a public regulator that fines both Facebook and Apple for their respective abuses, we will never know which.

strict9 8y ago
A public regulator of tech oligopolies is a great idea. Until that happens we have few choices in whom we chose to trust. Apple is no corporate saint but for now it is the best of the lot because of its business model.
- scarface74 8y ago
  You really trust the government to regulate tech fairly?
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    I trust them ("them" being developed-world democracies; obviously there are more concerns with, say, the Saudis) more than I trust tech to self-regulate. You're not going to get a self-imposed GDPR.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      But private corporations also can’t forceable take away your freedom and your property. If I have the choice between giving the government more power and private companies. I worry a lot more about government power.
      - ceejayoz 8y ago
        > But private corporations also can’t forceable take away your freedom and your property. Sure they can. GDPR was necessarily because tech has largely obliterated the right to privacy online, with like buttons, analytics, ad networks, etc.
        scarface74 8y ago
        Well considering that the worse that corporations can do with data is sell your privacy compared to the worse that the government can do - throw you in jail if you give them too much power. I’d rather not give government more power. Trump has outright said that he is in favor of jailing journalists for spreading “fake news”. You know if the government passed a law to “protect privacy” they would give themselves an exemption and want a backdoor.
        ceejayoz 8y ago
        You can debate worst-case "the US gets taken over by Nazis" scenarios, but it's also important to consider current use. I find Facebook a far more significant currently active risk to my privacy than I do the government. I'd love to see a GDPR in the US.
        scarface74 8y ago
        I’m not debating the worse case. I’m going by history of how the FBI acted in the 60s during the Civil Rights Area and how it currently acts with the “War on Terror” and the “War on Drugs”. Having a government that is actively hostile to minorities - religious, race, nationality, or sexuality only takes a populist leader who speaks toward their prejudices....
        ceejayoz 8y ago
        Oh, come on. If we're going to go historical, we'll have to include company towns (which Facebook is revisiting as a concept, incidentally) and debt slavery, the Pinkertons machine gunning strikers...
  - strict9 8y ago
    Completely? No. But when it comes to data and privacy I think it'd be better than today's wild west. Who would have thought ten years ago so many people would be willingly give companies a live feed video stream of the inside and outside of your house, along with voice recordings of everything?
    - scarface74 8y ago
      And the government would never use its power to design laws against its enemies in a Democratic society. A Democratic society ruled by the majority never passes laws that discriminate against minorities and is never hostile against minorities....
  - lostlogin 8y ago
    It depends which one.
  - mikestew 8y ago
    Government regulation often comes about as a result of failure to self-regulate. Facebook doesn't care about torches and pitchforks, but your Congressional representative does. Now, were FB (or tech companies in general) smart, they'd self-regulate before the citizenry starts digging in the garden shed for implements. But tech companies, and especially FB lately, aren't smart. And, like the three year olds their maturity reflects, they bitch and moan when the hammer comes down. Well hey, Ayn, I've got an idea: stick a finger to the wind and sort your shit before the Big, Bad Government(tm) comes a-knockin'. Because when they come, shit's going to change and probably not in a way you like. Might as well get out in front of that narrative.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      My congressional representative is spending 2/3rds of his time fundraising. https://bulletin.represent.us/much-time-congress-members-spend-fundraising/ https://bulletin.represent.us/much-time-congress-members-spe... Especially in the south, the only thing they have to do is demonize “them”, wave a bible in one hand and a gun in the other to get re-elected while raising money from corporations. Neither they nor their constituents vote based on “privacy”.
wan23 8y ago
Are Facebook and Apple competitors?
- jannes 8y ago
  iMessage <-> WhatsApp. But that's a pretty minor business segment for Apple...
AbrahamParangi 8y ago
I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say Apple and Facebook are competitors. Apple makes its money selling stuff, Facebook by selling attention. That being said, the incentives for Apple to become more like Facebook are quite strong and you can see it in the direction Microsoft has gone with Cortana and in-OS ads.
- r00fus 8y ago
  So who are you positing as becoming more like Facebook, Apple or Microsoft? Or do you assume that they’re equivalent?

gnomewascool 8y ago

I think OP's stance is something like: Given that Apple has the ability to control what software can and cannot run on your device (to a large extent), this is a praiseworthy use of this power, however, on the whole, it would be preferable for Apple not to have this ability.

r00fus 8y ago
Facebook still has this power on android. If you don’t want the protections of apples walled garden feel free to swim in the unregulated waters of android
pacala 8y ago
Absolutely! We should have laws protecting our privacy online and offline, from governments and from private entities. We should be able to sue Facebook and their ilk into oblivion. Until then, anyone who stands for privacy is on my side and has my business.
mikestew 8y ago
In a world where there are no weasels like FB, constantly trying to see what they can get away with, I too would prefer that Apple not have that ability. But in the world I currently live in, I'll reluctantly side with Apple having that ability. And the instant they use it not to my liking, I can go buy some other brand of phone.
taurath 8y ago
How would Apple be able to enforce any of its user privacy policies without having some control? Write the developers a sternly worded letter?
- gnomewascool 8y ago
  Leave it up to the user (or, possibly, their parents if they're under-age) and give them the tools for maintaining their privacy. For example: Have appropriate app permissions (which we mostly already have). State that only apps within the app store are monitored to be privacy-friendly/"trustworthy", while still allowing a relatively hassle-free way of installing apps from outside it, similarly to how Android does it (except that I don't necessarily trust Google to ensure that the apps within the Play Store are "trustworthy"). Label "untrustworthy" apps (similarly to how F-Droid labels potentially unwanted features). Now, since Apple currently has more intrusive control, I want them to use it for "good", but I don't want them having this power in the first place. As an analogy, if there were policemen stationed on every corner in the city, I'd probably want them to prevent suicidal people from jumping off bridges, but that doesn't mean that I want the policemen to be there. (For the record, I use Android.)