6 ms·

In my humble opinion, it's much more important to have a stellar product designer (decide how the thing works, then how it looks) than it is to have a stellar p

by dhh 16y ago

In my humble opinion, it's much more important to have a stellar product designer (decide how the thing works, then how it looks) than it is to have a stellar programmer. The slight problem is that programmers generally have an easier time making a shitty-but-workable UI than designers have putting together shitty-but-workable code. Thankfully that has been changing lately. I've talked to plenty of Rails developers who come from a design background and are teaching themselves how to program. Hell, that's how I originally met Jason Fried. He had taught himself to program and wanted some assistance. So if I was putting my money on any startups (and I'm not!), I would much rather pick the ones with strong design talent than with strong programming talent -- unless the key element to what they were doing was uniquely technical.

jcoop 16y ago
It's so nice to hear that come from a programmer :P
jeromec 16y ago
This is a great comment, but I'm still unclear about the intended meaning of "designer". Are we only talking about graphic/artistic design, or just product design? The two are not the same (IMO). For example, I'm a programmer at the core, completely left-brained/logical, who struggles with art/graphic design. However, I am a great product designer (at least, IMO!). So, the one thing I look for to complete projects I'm working on is a graphic designer. Also, I'm glad you qualified your last statement with this: "unless the key element to what they were doing was uniquely technical." I once had a graphic designer tell me his role was more important than the programming side to web sites, which I totally disagree with. I have a one word retort to that: craigslist. It's true that oftentimes great graphic design is a necessary ingredient to the success of a site, but that's not always the case.
- Neputys 16y ago
  Everybody is essential, none is sufficient... (and craigslist has a design, it's just a different kind)
  - jeromec 16y ago
    (and craigslist has a design, it's just a different kind) Yes, I agree craigslist has a design. It's a functional design, the kind I'm great at. What I'm not so good at is art/graphic design. I could have built craigslist from scratch completely by myself in a few weeks, if that long, but that's because I can lay things out and use shades of gray quite well.
    - Neputys 16y ago
      I really believe you could... but the thing is - would you decide to keep it this way as they did? Really.. think about it. Wouldn't you think let's hire a "designer" to make it nicer now that we have more money (same here)? For me this is the actual kind of smart design decision and not ability to make sleek glossy buttons. I don't want to have an argument. I'm just sharing my view on what I think good design actually is.
      - jeromec 16y ago
        Well, that's a good question, but it depends on whether you mean a graphic designer or a "user experience" person. A graphic designer can make most any site look nicer, but that doesn't mean the same thing as providing them with a better usage experience. For example, does the position/availability of search boxes make sense. I'm not trying to argue, either. This is an interesting topic for me. Where the purely technical/engineering world merges with the artistic world there is often interesting overlap. Is it better to have form over function, or function over form? I think the answer is that it depends case by case on the desired result, and both areas often compromise to accommodate the other. So, for example, "concept cars" usually have exotic form, and look great, but they are usually hypothetical only because in reality they wouldn't be that great functionally -- they're usually purely artistic.
        Neputys 16y ago
        No matter what the title is the thing that makes a world of difference is the reason someone designs. Nice looks are useless if they have no clear purpose, if there's no underlying reason for them to be nice. The value of really good designer is in the ability to understand what kind of design and how much of it is needed in order to make something _work_ well/better as opposed to just look nice (what can be simply harmful in some cases, I call it monkey with grenade...). So I think if when you say designer you mean someone who has ability to understand bigger picture and uses his skills as a tool to achieve something, you definitely need one (and you'll have a hard time finding him). But if it's just about looks then I'm not sure. btw, design is not art, design is an industrial term believe it or not. Child of mass production in 19th century:)
- dhh 16y ago
  I mean designing the experience. How does it work, what goes where, what's important, etc. The "how does it look" is further down the line from there but still integrally connected. I find that the best product designers are people who can follow the rabbit hole all the way. From thinking about the problem to figuring out how many pixels the border should be.
  - jeromec 16y ago
    Now see, you just described me perfectly with everything you said except for that last part about how many pixels the border should be. As a programmer I'm great at all of it except border width type decisions -- which btw I don't think are the most important thing affecting user experience. It mostly just helps aesthetics. It may be that I'm rare as a programmer that's good at following the user experience rabbit hole all the way, but I don't think so.
    - dhh 16y ago
      Making the connection from "how should it work" to "how should it look" is half the magic pudding of a good designer. Relegating that to "it mostly just helps aesthetics" to me signifies someone who doesn't understand that connection.
      - jeromec 16y ago
        We're experiencing some missed communication. I believe that's because "how it should look" encompasses two separate aspects -- functionality, and visual appeal. My comment about helping aesthetics was specifically regarding border width. I don't think you're suggesting a border width decision has anything to do with how something works. Let me explain it better this way. I am fantastic at putting together wireframes for sites. A wireframe requires no programming or artistic ability, because it uses simply black and white lines, yet still effectively communicates the placement of elements, site flow, and overall intended functional user experience. I believe this is the type of design you're referring to. Again, this is something I feel I'm quite good at. Now, while I'm fully capable of cutting up and building out any wireframes I (or anyone else) come up with, and putting them online, it's probably not a good idea, because black and white lines would lack visual appeal. That's where graphic artists (what I usually call graphic designers) come in -- but in that instance they're mostly just adding in shapes, colors, and gradients etc. (and figuring out border width ;) To me, building great wireframes and flow charts generally fits better with the thinking of programmers -- people most in tuned with thinking logically -- than creative artsy types, but that's just my thinking.
hsuresh 16y ago
Design, in the sense you mention here, is something i would expect a good programmer to be good at. It is about problem solving, as well as understanding users of the solution. Designing a solution also requires a bit of algorithmic thinking. I have seen very few non-programmer designers who were good at designing a solution/application.
- dhh 16y ago
  You might expect that, but my sense from the real world is that it is not true. I consider myself pretty good at this stuff and I'm still humbled by the insights of our designers.
- jcoop 16y ago
  I think the issue here is that programmers, and MBA's for that matter, tend to be convergent-thinkers, whereas designers tend to be divergent-thinkers. Relying on a convergent thought process to solve a problem isn't the most effective way to tackle an issue and therefore involving designers in this process produces far more effective results.

by dhh 16y ago

jcoop 16y ago

It's so nice to hear that come from a programmer :P

jeromec 16y ago

This is a great comment, but I'm still unclear about the intended meaning of "designer". Are we only talking about graphic/artistic design, or just product design? The two are not the same (IMO). For example, I'm a programmer at the core, completely left-brained/logical, who struggles with art/graphic design. However, I am a great product designer (at least, IMO!). So, the one thing I look for to complete projects I'm working on is a graphic designer. Also, I'm glad you qualified your last statement with this: "unless the key element to what they were doing was uniquely technical." I once had a graphic designer tell me his role was more important than the programming side to web sites, which I totally disagree with. I have a one word retort to that: craigslist. It's true that oftentimes great graphic design is a necessary ingredient to the success of a site, but that's not always the case.

Neputys 16y ago
Everybody is essential, none is sufficient... (and craigslist has a design, it's just a different kind)
- jeromec 16y ago
  (and craigslist has a design, it's just a different kind) Yes, I agree craigslist has a design. It's a functional design, the kind I'm great at. What I'm not so good at is art/graphic design. I could have built craigslist from scratch completely by myself in a few weeks, if that long, but that's because I can lay things out and use shades of gray quite well.
  - Neputys 16y ago
    I really believe you could... but the thing is - would you decide to keep it this way as they did? Really.. think about it. Wouldn't you think let's hire a "designer" to make it nicer now that we have more money (same here)? For me this is the actual kind of smart design decision and not ability to make sleek glossy buttons. I don't want to have an argument. I'm just sharing my view on what I think good design actually is.
    - jeromec 16y ago
      Well, that's a good question, but it depends on whether you mean a graphic designer or a "user experience" person. A graphic designer can make most any site look nicer, but that doesn't mean the same thing as providing them with a better usage experience. For example, does the position/availability of search boxes make sense. I'm not trying to argue, either. This is an interesting topic for me. Where the purely technical/engineering world merges with the artistic world there is often interesting overlap. Is it better to have form over function, or function over form? I think the answer is that it depends case by case on the desired result, and both areas often compromise to accommodate the other. So, for example, "concept cars" usually have exotic form, and look great, but they are usually hypothetical only because in reality they wouldn't be that great functionally -- they're usually purely artistic.
      - Neputys 16y ago
        No matter what the title is the thing that makes a world of difference is the reason someone designs. Nice looks are useless if they have no clear purpose, if there's no underlying reason for them to be nice. The value of really good designer is in the ability to understand what kind of design and how much of it is needed in order to make something _work_ well/better as opposed to just look nice (what can be simply harmful in some cases, I call it monkey with grenade...). So I think if when you say designer you mean someone who has ability to understand bigger picture and uses his skills as a tool to achieve something, you definitely need one (and you'll have a hard time finding him). But if it's just about looks then I'm not sure. btw, design is not art, design is an industrial term believe it or not. Child of mass production in 19th century:)
dhh 16y ago
I mean designing the experience. How does it work, what goes where, what's important, etc. The "how does it look" is further down the line from there but still integrally connected. I find that the best product designers are people who can follow the rabbit hole all the way. From thinking about the problem to figuring out how many pixels the border should be.
- jeromec 16y ago
  Now see, you just described me perfectly with everything you said except for that last part about how many pixels the border should be. As a programmer I'm great at all of it except border width type decisions -- which btw I don't think are the most important thing affecting user experience. It mostly just helps aesthetics. It may be that I'm rare as a programmer that's good at following the user experience rabbit hole all the way, but I don't think so.
  - dhh 16y ago
    Making the connection from "how should it work" to "how should it look" is half the magic pudding of a good designer. Relegating that to "it mostly just helps aesthetics" to me signifies someone who doesn't understand that connection.
    - jeromec 16y ago
      We're experiencing some missed communication. I believe that's because "how it should look" encompasses two separate aspects -- functionality, and visual appeal. My comment about helping aesthetics was specifically regarding border width. I don't think you're suggesting a border width decision has anything to do with how something works. Let me explain it better this way. I am fantastic at putting together wireframes for sites. A wireframe requires no programming or artistic ability, because it uses simply black and white lines, yet still effectively communicates the placement of elements, site flow, and overall intended functional user experience. I believe this is the type of design you're referring to. Again, this is something I feel I'm quite good at. Now, while I'm fully capable of cutting up and building out any wireframes I (or anyone else) come up with, and putting them online, it's probably not a good idea, because black and white lines would lack visual appeal. That's where graphic artists (what I usually call graphic designers) come in -- but in that instance they're mostly just adding in shapes, colors, and gradients etc. (and figuring out border width ;) To me, building great wireframes and flow charts generally fits better with the thinking of programmers -- people most in tuned with thinking logically -- than creative artsy types, but that's just my thinking.

hsuresh 16y ago

Design, in the sense you mention here, is something i would expect a good programmer to be good at. It is about problem solving, as well as understanding users of the solution. Designing a solution also requires a bit of algorithmic thinking. I have seen very few non-programmer designers who were good at designing a solution/application.

dhh 16y ago
You might expect that, but my sense from the real world is that it is not true. I consider myself pretty good at this stuff and I'm still humbled by the insights of our designers.
jcoop 16y ago
I think the issue here is that programmers, and MBA's for that matter, tend to be convergent-thinkers, whereas designers tend to be divergent-thinkers. Relying on a convergent thought process to solve a problem isn't the most effective way to tackle an issue and therefore involving designers in this process produces far more effective results.