6 ms·

Tip pooling/sharing is different in a few significant ways, though. First, restaurant staff always know ahead of time if they have to share tips. And their ho

Tip pooling/sharing is different in a few significant ways, though. First, restaurant staff always know ahead of time if they have to share tips. And their hourly compensation, as ridiculously low as it may be, is never adjusted to compensate for higher than normal tips. And, finally, in most restaurants the tip pool is also split up with bussers, bartenders, and hosts who don't always make tips of their own, but still contribute to the overall experience.

thaumasiotes 8y ago
I agree that the first two points are significant, but I don't think they're particularly relevant to the viewpoint "as a tipper, I feel I'm being defrauded when this happens". The third point is also correct, but in that case I think it supports the idea that the tipper is being defrauded when it happens.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  I feel like you maybe need to write a book about why you think a server sharing their tips around is equivalent to a corporation reducing wages based on tips. I don't see how any shorter treatment would be a sufficient explanation. I mean, imagine the scenario where the server just buys a line cook a drink to say thank you. Fraud!
  - thaumasiotes 8y ago
    > I mean, imagine the scenario where the server just buys a line cook a drink to say thank you. Fraud! That would be a case of the server getting the money and deciding to buy something for the cook. Whereas in an actual tip-sharing restaurant, the server gets his share of the tip pool after the cook's share has already been taken out. He doesn't get a choice in the matter. This is generally not what the people giving the tips have in mind.
    - tlow 8y ago
      >This is generally not what the people giving the tips have in mind. Can you substantiate that in any way with any kind of evidence or is it a baseless claim?
      - cstrahan 8y ago
        I'm just one data point, but I imagine I'm not alone: If I tip someone well, it's because they've been incredibly attentive, kind, accommodating, etc. As much as possible, I want the tip to brighten their day. The effect is greatly diminished if that money is immediately divvied up amongst the other servers, making the difference to what they bring home negligible. I've never worked as a server (though I did work at Chik-fil-A in highschool; employees are not allowed to accept tips there), and I did not realize that many restaurants are involved in the handling of tip money, rather than the tips going directly to the respective server. So, no, that's not what I had in mind. Why should anyone expect that sort of handling of tips? Not everyone has worked a job involving tips. I didn't. Should I have spontaneously asked one of my server friends "hey, btw, how are tips handled at your job? Like, I suspect that when I tip someone, you know, that money goes to them, because after all, I gave it to that person and not the restaurant and not anyone else, but just in case I'm mistaken, could you tell me what happens with the tip money after I leave it on the table? It's a question that's been gnawing at the back of my mind, and I just had to ask!" My point being: unless you're a server at one of those restaurants, how would you know that your server doesn't get the tip you left for them? Could you substantiate such a claim?
        rglullis 8y ago
        You are not alone, just in a minority of people who are not familiar with something that is almost integral to US culture: that most people in the hospitality/services/restaurant industry depend more on tips than wages, and that the bigger the business (chain restaurants vs small local places) the more likely that their system involves pooling the tip money.
    - ultraluminous 8y ago
      The point being made that you're repeatedly ignoring is that that in this scenario the staff gets the tips. Only the staff. In no point in time, whether it's individual tips or tips sharing, does the restaurant receive any part of the tips pool.
loeg 8y ago
> And their hourly compensation, as ridiculously low as it may be, is never adjusted to compensate for higher than normal tips. This varies by state. Google "server wage" and your blood will boil. It's illegal in WA, though — servers make standard minimum wage and employers can't take servers' tips.
- Buge 8y ago
  Yes, minimum wage for servers is lower than for people who don't get tips. But it's still illegal to lower a person's wage below what was advertised because the person got a tip.
  - loeg 8y ago
    I think you're confused. You're describing "server wage" laws, in which employers are free to steal tips up to the difference between real minimum wage and server wage per hour. In effect, servers in these states make above minimum wage during peak times and at most minimum wage off-peak. But they have to work off-peak or they don't get scheduled for peak hours. In WA, this form of wage theft is illegal. Your statement, "minimum wage for servers is lower than for untipped workers" is false in Washington state, which is where the wage theft in TFA took place.
    - Buge 8y ago
      I don't see how my previous comment was confused. It was drawing a distinction between "server wage" and what Instacart is doing. I never claimed "server wage" laws apply to this situation. Also, the term "wage theft" seems like it doesn't apply to "server wage", because "server wage" is a construct specifically created by the law, whereas wage theft is something that's illegal.
- alasdair_ 8y ago
  It’s somewhat bullshit that the people who did all the work making the tasty meal get nothing, while the person handing it to you gets 20 percent. Especially when Seattle minimum wage is $15/hour and tips cannot count as part of that.
stolsvik 8y ago
If the restaurant pays you less due to the expectation of significant tipping, then I do have a bit hard time too see why the practice of Instacart and restaurants differ that much. I guess you need to be American to understand this tipping logic.
- FakeComments 8y ago
  Instacart is dynamically adjusting down wages in response to tips; restaurants have a fixed wage, with a legislated minimum — even if it accounts for average tips. The difference is that one allows the customer to dynamically adjust the wages in response to service; while in the other the company is pocketing that variance themselves, rather than passing it on to workers. It’s simply fraud to pretend one situation is the other — there’s a distinct and meaningful difference in who pockets tip variance.
kakarot 8y ago
At my first waiting job, we didn't report our full tips because if our income including tips surpassed $8, our salary would be reduced. With the "benefit" that if we made less than minimum wage, we would be compensated. However base pay was $2.50/hour + tips, so do the math. Yet somehow the system only ever seems to work in one direction. I once had to pay $20 after working an 8-hour shift before leaving home under threat of termination (right-to-work state) because of the two tables I had that night, one was a giant party that didn't tip me at all and the other ran out on his $20 meal while I was taking care of other duties in the back. Somehow my responsibility, of course.
- masonic 8y ago
  Somehow my responsibility Right-to-work state or not, I know if no state in which that $20 clawback (as you describe it) was legal.
  - kakarot 8y ago
    I have no doubt it was considerably illegal, however I would have been terminated immediately in a town where finding another job without a vehicle or parents would have been impossible, and since I was living on my own as a minor at this time it was pretty important that I maintained income. After several more undoubtedly illegal maneuvers by a new manager to fire me and other waitstaff so that he could replace them with random girls he wanted to work for him so he could hit on them, being taken off payroll without clearing it with the senior manager, and afterwards being reduced to a single day a week on the slowest days, I quit. I then had to leave the place I was living at two months later to a brand new city, contracted mononucleosis, and, not having any saved up money after quitting this job and unable to work due to being bedridden for 4-5 months, basically starved myself into extreme malnutrition other than the food I could steal and scavenge, surfing from couch to couch. So, essentially my worst fears about quitting my job over illegal practices were realized. I could also tell you stories from other jobs about bosses pulling firearms on me, commanding me to do straight up illegal things like lie to the police, illegally withholding paychecks for entire staff for months at a time, illegal unpaid overtime, slashing wages between paychecks, working me into extreme injury from RSI and then subverting my ability to collect comp, firing me over "clerical errors" for trying to cancel a shift I didn't even mean to sign up for on a stupid new workforce app after my boss explicitly lying about my employment not being in jeopardy, etc, and all of the hardships I had to endure for leaving each of these jobs at my breaking point.

thaumasiotes 8y ago

I agree that the first two points are significant, but I don't think they're particularly relevant to the viewpoint "as a tipper, I feel I'm being defrauded when this happens". The third point is also correct, but in that case I think it supports the idea that the tipper is being defrauded when it happens.

maxerickson 8y ago
I feel like you maybe need to write a book about why you think a server sharing their tips around is equivalent to a corporation reducing wages based on tips. I don't see how any shorter treatment would be a sufficient explanation. I mean, imagine the scenario where the server just buys a line cook a drink to say thank you. Fraud!
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  > I mean, imagine the scenario where the server just buys a line cook a drink to say thank you. Fraud! That would be a case of the server getting the money and deciding to buy something for the cook. Whereas in an actual tip-sharing restaurant, the server gets his share of the tip pool after the cook's share has already been taken out. He doesn't get a choice in the matter. This is generally not what the people giving the tips have in mind.
  - tlow 8y ago
    >This is generally not what the people giving the tips have in mind. Can you substantiate that in any way with any kind of evidence or is it a baseless claim?
    - cstrahan 8y ago
      I'm just one data point, but I imagine I'm not alone: If I tip someone well, it's because they've been incredibly attentive, kind, accommodating, etc. As much as possible, I want the tip to brighten their day. The effect is greatly diminished if that money is immediately divvied up amongst the other servers, making the difference to what they bring home negligible. I've never worked as a server (though I did work at Chik-fil-A in highschool; employees are not allowed to accept tips there), and I did not realize that many restaurants are involved in the handling of tip money, rather than the tips going directly to the respective server. So, no, that's not what I had in mind. Why should anyone expect that sort of handling of tips? Not everyone has worked a job involving tips. I didn't. Should I have spontaneously asked one of my server friends "hey, btw, how are tips handled at your job? Like, I suspect that when I tip someone, you know, that money goes to them, because after all, I gave it to that person and not the restaurant and not anyone else, but just in case I'm mistaken, could you tell me what happens with the tip money after I leave it on the table? It's a question that's been gnawing at the back of my mind, and I just had to ask!" My point being: unless you're a server at one of those restaurants, how would you know that your server doesn't get the tip you left for them? Could you substantiate such a claim?
      - rglullis 8y ago
        You are not alone, just in a minority of people who are not familiar with something that is almost integral to US culture: that most people in the hospitality/services/restaurant industry depend more on tips than wages, and that the bigger the business (chain restaurants vs small local places) the more likely that their system involves pooling the tip money.
  - ultraluminous 8y ago
    The point being made that you're repeatedly ignoring is that that in this scenario the staff gets the tips. Only the staff. In no point in time, whether it's individual tips or tips sharing, does the restaurant receive any part of the tips pool.

loeg 8y ago

> And their hourly compensation, as ridiculously low as it may be, is never adjusted to compensate for higher than normal tips. This varies by state. Google "server wage" and your blood will boil. It's illegal in WA, though — servers make standard minimum wage and employers can't take servers' tips.

Buge 8y ago
Yes, minimum wage for servers is lower than for people who don't get tips. But it's still illegal to lower a person's wage below what was advertised because the person got a tip.
- loeg 8y ago
  I think you're confused. You're describing "server wage" laws, in which employers are free to steal tips up to the difference between real minimum wage and server wage per hour. In effect, servers in these states make above minimum wage during peak times and at most minimum wage off-peak. But they have to work off-peak or they don't get scheduled for peak hours. In WA, this form of wage theft is illegal. Your statement, "minimum wage for servers is lower than for untipped workers" is false in Washington state, which is where the wage theft in TFA took place.
  - Buge 8y ago
    I don't see how my previous comment was confused. It was drawing a distinction between "server wage" and what Instacart is doing. I never claimed "server wage" laws apply to this situation. Also, the term "wage theft" seems like it doesn't apply to "server wage", because "server wage" is a construct specifically created by the law, whereas wage theft is something that's illegal.
alasdair_ 8y ago
It’s somewhat bullshit that the people who did all the work making the tasty meal get nothing, while the person handing it to you gets 20 percent. Especially when Seattle minimum wage is $15/hour and tips cannot count as part of that.

stolsvik 8y ago

If the restaurant pays you less due to the expectation of significant tipping, then I do have a bit hard time too see why the practice of Instacart and restaurants differ that much. I guess you need to be American to understand this tipping logic.

FakeComments 8y ago
Instacart is dynamically adjusting down wages in response to tips; restaurants have a fixed wage, with a legislated minimum — even if it accounts for average tips. The difference is that one allows the customer to dynamically adjust the wages in response to service; while in the other the company is pocketing that variance themselves, rather than passing it on to workers. It’s simply fraud to pretend one situation is the other — there’s a distinct and meaningful difference in who pockets tip variance.

kakarot 8y ago

At my first waiting job, we didn't report our full tips because if our income including tips surpassed $8, our salary would be reduced. With the "benefit" that if we made less than minimum wage, we would be compensated. However base pay was $2.50/hour + tips, so do the math. Yet somehow the system only ever seems to work in one direction. I once had to pay $20 after working an 8-hour shift before leaving home under threat of termination (right-to-work state) because of the two tables I had that night, one was a giant party that didn't tip me at all and the other ran out on his $20 meal while I was taking care of other duties in the back. Somehow my responsibility, of course.

masonic 8y ago
Somehow my responsibility Right-to-work state or not, I know if no state in which that $20 clawback (as you describe it) was legal.
- kakarot 8y ago
  I have no doubt it was considerably illegal, however I would have been terminated immediately in a town where finding another job without a vehicle or parents would have been impossible, and since I was living on my own as a minor at this time it was pretty important that I maintained income. After several more undoubtedly illegal maneuvers by a new manager to fire me and other waitstaff so that he could replace them with random girls he wanted to work for him so he could hit on them, being taken off payroll without clearing it with the senior manager, and afterwards being reduced to a single day a week on the slowest days, I quit. I then had to leave the place I was living at two months later to a brand new city, contracted mononucleosis, and, not having any saved up money after quitting this job and unable to work due to being bedridden for 4-5 months, basically starved myself into extreme malnutrition other than the food I could steal and scavenge, surfing from couch to couch. So, essentially my worst fears about quitting my job over illegal practices were realized. I could also tell you stories from other jobs about bosses pulling firearms on me, commanding me to do straight up illegal things like lie to the police, illegally withholding paychecks for entire staff for months at a time, illegal unpaid overtime, slashing wages between paychecks, working me into extreme injury from RSI and then subverting my ability to collect comp, firing me over "clerical errors" for trying to cancel a shift I didn't even mean to sign up for on a stupid new workforce app after my boss explicitly lying about my employment not being in jeopardy, etc, and all of the hardships I had to endure for leaving each of these jobs at my breaking point.