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Western countries have lots of anti-corruption laws, but these laws won't help. Nor creating more laws would help either. What we have is: ethically corrupt but

Western countries have lots of anti-corruption laws, but these laws won't help. Nor creating more laws would help either. What we have is: ethically corrupt but legally clean.

munk-a 8y ago
I disagree, I believe corruption in western democracies can be addressed within their legal frameworks. A lot of the issues with money and politics have existed in some form or another for quite some time, but recently the excesses of corruption has become more extreme - still the American government is able to occasionally police itself, even if it's had trouble doing so recently.
- raincom 8y ago
  Even one removes the direct connection between money and politics, the current problems will take a different form: indirection. One kind of indirection we already see today: revolving doors So, where is the root problem of all these? It is collusion of power(politics), media(intellectuals, think tanks), money(capitalists, wealthy bankers). These powerful classes constitute 0.5% of any society, but these classes are colluding in order to advance their own interests. Yes, we have elections. What happens then? It is another fight between one group of colluders and another group of colluders. In many cases, the powerful classes bet on the both sides. How can one ban collusion? Look at office politics in any large organization. Think of banning collusions at work place.
  - vkou 8y ago
    You don't ban collusion. I mean, you can, but it's not going to be particularly effective. What you do, to solve this problem, is empower the lower classes. We've just observed how two unions - air traffic controllers, and flight attendants - have accomplished, with the threat of a work stoppage, something that both the Republican, and the Democratic party failed to achieve - a re-opening of the government. The 99.5% have all the power. What they need to do, is to use it in solidarity.
75dvtwin 8y ago
Exactly this. Modern corruption vehicles include things like speeches, book publishing fees, movie/documentary fees, consulting fees, and real-estate deals where an expensive property is sold or rented for much less than market value. Money laundering is done through complex derivatives, charitable foundations, and so on. Basically modern day western corruption is based on the premise that 'work compensation' is 'discretionary' -- so any kind of 'work-like' engagement of a corrupted politician, or his/her immediate family members is easily turned into a bribe. Even accidental (or minor) corruption of politicians, also adds to the rise of 'black mailing'. So there are politicians who have 'dirt on others', and that's their trading currency. And so on, the swamp is continuing to snowball. Some examples [1] http://time.com/3889577/hillary-clinton-paid-speeches-lobbyists-influence/ http://time.com/3889577/hillary-clinton-paid-speeches-lobbyi... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/barack-obama-speech-money-wall-street-advertisers-interview-payment-a7707816.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic... I am sure others can find more.
- throwaway5752 8y ago
  You've never personally experienced actual corruption in your entire life, have you?
  - decebalus1 8y ago
    Growing up and living in Eastern Europe and then the US I agree with the post above you. I've experienced actual corruption (corrupt cops, doctors, small time civil servants, what have you) and I can see actual corruption in the US also. But it's 'legal' and way less prevalent at the lower levels.
- woodandsteel 8y ago
  So are you saying that all countries are corrupt, and approximately equally so? And is your conclusion that as a consequence trying to fight corruption is doomed to fail and so their is no point in trying?
  - 8y ago
IfOnlyYouKnew 8y ago
Looking at the results, it seems quite obvious that most western countries have had significant success in curbing corruption. To just cynically dismiss these efforts would seem to both unhelpful (because why bother?) and just factually wrong. I live in one of the top 20 countries, and have experience in countries in the lower half. The difference is like night and day. Imagine having to “tip” the EMT to take you to a hospital when you’ve been in a car accident. I had a local friend in Asian country who pretended to be unconscious in such a situation because they didn’t have any money on them.
- ra1n85 8y ago
  Tipping an EMT is an example of low level corruption - the kind that comes with inadequate pay for government workers, lack of opportunities, etc. This is frightenly common in a lot of countries and culturally accepted as a kind of nuisance and fact of life. I can’t say why this kind of corruption isn’t prevalent in the west(yet), but I don’t think it’s a fair comparison to the kind of corruption OP was describing.
turtlecloud 8y ago
Yes. The government is full of people who “follow the letter but not the spirit of the law”.
siruncledrew 8y ago
Any country could have anti-corruption laws, even Somalia has them. Doesn't mean they get enforced to same "ethical" degree as other countries. There's a lot of self-policing required to successfully bring corruption to justice and the offenders be held accountable. It's a lot harder to do than it sounds.
throwaway5752 8y ago
You say that like it's profound. You need 1) laws 2) funding for enforcement 3) penalties for corruption. Absent any of the three, corruption will succeed. The article directly references the broad systematic attack on 2 and 3 that's actively underway.

Western countries have lots of anti-corruption laws, but these laws won't help. Nor creating more laws would help either. What we have is: ethically corrupt but legally clean.

munk-a 8y ago

I disagree, I believe corruption in western democracies can be addressed within their legal frameworks. A lot of the issues with money and politics have existed in some form or another for quite some time, but recently the excesses of corruption has become more extreme - still the American government is able to occasionally police itself, even if it's had trouble doing so recently.

raincom 8y ago
Even one removes the direct connection between money and politics, the current problems will take a different form: indirection. One kind of indirection we already see today: revolving doors So, where is the root problem of all these? It is collusion of power(politics), media(intellectuals, think tanks), money(capitalists, wealthy bankers). These powerful classes constitute 0.5% of any society, but these classes are colluding in order to advance their own interests. Yes, we have elections. What happens then? It is another fight between one group of colluders and another group of colluders. In many cases, the powerful classes bet on the both sides. How can one ban collusion? Look at office politics in any large organization. Think of banning collusions at work place.
- vkou 8y ago
  You don't ban collusion. I mean, you can, but it's not going to be particularly effective. What you do, to solve this problem, is empower the lower classes. We've just observed how two unions - air traffic controllers, and flight attendants - have accomplished, with the threat of a work stoppage, something that both the Republican, and the Democratic party failed to achieve - a re-opening of the government. The 99.5% have all the power. What they need to do, is to use it in solidarity.

75dvtwin 8y ago

Exactly this. Modern corruption vehicles include things like speeches, book publishing fees, movie/documentary fees, consulting fees, and real-estate deals where an expensive property is sold or rented for much less than market value. Money laundering is done through complex derivatives, charitable foundations, and so on. Basically modern day western corruption is based on the premise that 'work compensation' is 'discretionary' -- so any kind of 'work-like' engagement of a corrupted politician, or his/her immediate family members is easily turned into a bribe. Even accidental (or minor) corruption of politicians, also adds to the rise of 'black mailing'. So there are politicians who have 'dirt on others', and that's their trading currency. And so on, the swamp is continuing to snowball. Some examples [1] http://time.com/3889577/hillary-clinton-paid-speeches-lobbyists-influence/ http://time.com/3889577/hillary-clinton-paid-speeches-lobbyi... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/barack-obama-speech-money-wall-street-advertisers-interview-payment-a7707816.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic... I am sure others can find more.

throwaway5752 8y ago
You've never personally experienced actual corruption in your entire life, have you?
- decebalus1 8y ago
  Growing up and living in Eastern Europe and then the US I agree with the post above you. I've experienced actual corruption (corrupt cops, doctors, small time civil servants, what have you) and I can see actual corruption in the US also. But it's 'legal' and way less prevalent at the lower levels.
woodandsteel 8y ago
So are you saying that all countries are corrupt, and approximately equally so? And is your conclusion that as a consequence trying to fight corruption is doomed to fail and so their is no point in trying?
- 8y ago

IfOnlyYouKnew 8y ago

Looking at the results, it seems quite obvious that most western countries have had significant success in curbing corruption. To just cynically dismiss these efforts would seem to both unhelpful (because why bother?) and just factually wrong. I live in one of the top 20 countries, and have experience in countries in the lower half. The difference is like night and day. Imagine having to “tip” the EMT to take you to a hospital when you’ve been in a car accident. I had a local friend in Asian country who pretended to be unconscious in such a situation because they didn’t have any money on them.

ra1n85 8y ago
Tipping an EMT is an example of low level corruption - the kind that comes with inadequate pay for government workers, lack of opportunities, etc. This is frightenly common in a lot of countries and culturally accepted as a kind of nuisance and fact of life. I can’t say why this kind of corruption isn’t prevalent in the west(yet), but I don’t think it’s a fair comparison to the kind of corruption OP was describing.

turtlecloud 8y ago

Yes. The government is full of people who “follow the letter but not the spirit of the law”.

siruncledrew 8y ago

Any country could have anti-corruption laws, even Somalia has them. Doesn't mean they get enforced to same "ethical" degree as other countries. There's a lot of self-policing required to successfully bring corruption to justice and the offenders be held accountable. It's a lot harder to do than it sounds.

throwaway5752 8y ago

You say that like it's profound. You need 1) laws 2) funding for enforcement 3) penalties for corruption. Absent any of the three, corruption will succeed. The article directly references the broad systematic attack on 2 and 3 that's actively underway.