5 ms·

That's not the logic behind the tipping system. It's, "tipping incentives employees to perform well because they'll make more money for doing a better job". It

That's not the logic behind the tipping system. It's, "tipping incentives employees to perform well because they'll make more money for doing a better job". It doesn't work that way either, but that's the rationale. Forcing people to tip to ensure people get paid enough money is a consequence of the system, not the reasoning why the system is implemented.

nitwit005 8y ago
People do make the argument that you should tip generously because they're poorly paid.
- ilikehurdles 8y ago
  The very people writing these workers’ paychecks are effectively making this argument.
  - megy 8y ago
    The very people collected those checks are making those arguments, directly. Lets be honest, service staff prefer the way it is. They can prey on their customers, and they end up making more than they would if paid min wage.
    - bunderbunder 8y ago
      Most service staff are probably thinking within a set framework, where getting a minimal base pay is a foregone conclusion. A more interesting and useful comparison would be to poll individuals who have held similar service industry jobs in countries that do and do not have tipping cultures, and ask them which they preferred and why.
    - ilikehurdles 8y ago
      Anecdotally, Montreal certainly has a tipping culture _and_ pays service staff the same minimum that everyone else is subject to. The restaurant prices aren’t any different from metros in the US. Really, there is no advantage to taking a lower wage to anyone but the restaurant owners issuing that wage.
    - wu_tang_chris 8y ago
      And it helps them dodge taxes.
- bunderbunder 8y ago
  Yeah, but, like the parent points out, that's not the rationale for having a tipping culture in the first place. It's just a well-intentioned attempt by people who live in a tipping culture to try and make it a bit less crappy for the people who have to suffer getting paid that way. And/or a craven attempt by employers to further deflect any responsibility for responsibility for paying their employees. I noticed that the Curb app bumped the default tip rate to 25% at some point. I'm guessing that's somehow, directly or indirectly, leading to them or taxi companies getting to keep a larger cut of the fares.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
wonderwonder 8y ago
I agree with you that tipping is a consequence of the system but I would argue the actual logic behind tippipng is that it allows employers to pay their employees less. Per federal law, tips can be used by an employer to satisfy the difference between the actual paid wage and the federal minimum. I would be very surprised if it was a waiters lobbying group pushing for this type of legislation. Several studies have also shown that there is very little relation between the quality of service provided and the amount of the tip. Tipping really is a method for the employer to hold onto as much money as possible at the expense of staff.
jopsen 8y ago
As with many things in a America tipping started as a good idea, it was then taken too far and turned into a rather draconian setup where everybody is caught in a system you can't get out of.
on_and_off 8y ago
From what I understand of US history, tipping was introduced when hotels and restaurants lost money because of the prohibition, as a way to supplement wages. So it sounds like it is absolutely used as a bad way to supplement wages.
paxy 8y ago
Plus all studies done on tipping have disputed this. Tips don't depend on the quality of service but rather on how attractive and flirty the waitress is.
- justtopost 8y ago
  That is a clear quality expressed in service. Why shouldnt you optimise for customer satisfaction?
- mruts 8y ago
  Service is defined by how satisfied the customer is. Being attractive and flirty is a component (maybe not absolutely integral, but still a value-add, I think most would agree)
BeetleB 8y ago
>That's not the logic behind the tipping system. It's, "tipping incentives employees to perform well because they'll make more money for doing a better job". >It doesn't work that way either, but that's the rationale. Indeed. The on the ground reality is that tipping does not serve this purpose. I don't know if it ever did, to be frank. Studies[0] generally show little to no correlation between performance and amount tipped. And the reality is that tipping is the reason invoked in many state laws for paying restaurant workers less than minimum wage. Tipping is the reason they get paid poorly, and I always find it problematic that people invoke tipping as a way to help people, when it is the cause of their low wages. In those states, tipping is a big win for the restaurant owner. The customer pays more money out of his/her pocket, and the waiter often does not get much money. Unlike others, though, I do not consider this wage theft (even at a moral level). We don't tip for many other services that we receive, and the problem of how those workers are compensated doesn't cross our mind. Why do we insist that tipping some category of workers has a moral component whereas others do not? Fixing those laws will be a challenge as long as tipping is commonplace. [0] Example: https://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1110&context=articles https://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?arti... (Taking off my pink hat) (Yes, I do contribute to their poor wages by tipping. Have to conform somewhat to society!)

nitwit005 8y ago

People do make the argument that you should tip generously because they're poorly paid.

ilikehurdles 8y ago
The very people writing these workers’ paychecks are effectively making this argument.
- megy 8y ago
  The very people collected those checks are making those arguments, directly. Lets be honest, service staff prefer the way it is. They can prey on their customers, and they end up making more than they would if paid min wage.
  - bunderbunder 8y ago
    Most service staff are probably thinking within a set framework, where getting a minimal base pay is a foregone conclusion. A more interesting and useful comparison would be to poll individuals who have held similar service industry jobs in countries that do and do not have tipping cultures, and ask them which they preferred and why.
  - ilikehurdles 8y ago
    Anecdotally, Montreal certainly has a tipping culture _and_ pays service staff the same minimum that everyone else is subject to. The restaurant prices aren’t any different from metros in the US. Really, there is no advantage to taking a lower wage to anyone but the restaurant owners issuing that wage.
  - wu_tang_chris 8y ago
    And it helps them dodge taxes.
bunderbunder 8y ago
Yeah, but, like the parent points out, that's not the rationale for having a tipping culture in the first place. It's just a well-intentioned attempt by people who live in a tipping culture to try and make it a bit less crappy for the people who have to suffer getting paid that way. And/or a craven attempt by employers to further deflect any responsibility for responsibility for paying their employees. I noticed that the Curb app bumped the default tip rate to 25% at some point. I'm guessing that's somehow, directly or indirectly, leading to them or taxi companies getting to keep a larger cut of the fares.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

wonderwonder 8y ago

I agree with you that tipping is a consequence of the system but I would argue the actual logic behind tippipng is that it allows employers to pay their employees less. Per federal law, tips can be used by an employer to satisfy the difference between the actual paid wage and the federal minimum. I would be very surprised if it was a waiters lobbying group pushing for this type of legislation. Several studies have also shown that there is very little relation between the quality of service provided and the amount of the tip. Tipping really is a method for the employer to hold onto as much money as possible at the expense of staff.

jopsen 8y ago

As with many things in a America tipping started as a good idea, it was then taken too far and turned into a rather draconian setup where everybody is caught in a system you can't get out of.

on_and_off 8y ago

From what I understand of US history, tipping was introduced when hotels and restaurants lost money because of the prohibition, as a way to supplement wages. So it sounds like it is absolutely used as a bad way to supplement wages.

paxy 8y ago

Plus all studies done on tipping have disputed this. Tips don't depend on the quality of service but rather on how attractive and flirty the waitress is.

justtopost 8y ago
That is a clear quality expressed in service. Why shouldnt you optimise for customer satisfaction?
mruts 8y ago
Service is defined by how satisfied the customer is. Being attractive and flirty is a component (maybe not absolutely integral, but still a value-add, I think most would agree)

BeetleB 8y ago

>That's not the logic behind the tipping system. It's, "tipping incentives employees to perform well because they'll make more money for doing a better job". >It doesn't work that way either, but that's the rationale. Indeed. The on the ground reality is that tipping does not serve this purpose. I don't know if it ever did, to be frank. Studies[0] generally show little to no correlation between performance and amount tipped. And the reality is that tipping is the reason invoked in many state laws for paying restaurant workers less than minimum wage. Tipping is the reason they get paid poorly, and I always find it problematic that people invoke tipping as a way to help people, when it is the cause of their low wages. In those states, tipping is a big win for the restaurant owner. The customer pays more money out of his/her pocket, and the waiter often does not get much money. Unlike others, though, I do not consider this wage theft (even at a moral level). We don't tip for many other services that we receive, and the problem of how those workers are compensated doesn't cross our mind. Why do we insist that tipping some category of workers has a moral component whereas others do not? Fixing those laws will be a challenge as long as tipping is commonplace. [0] Example: https://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1110&context=articles https://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?arti... (Taking off my pink hat) (Yes, I do contribute to their poor wages by tipping. Have to conform somewhat to society!)