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Yep. They need to pay reimburse those workers with a penalty fee tacked on.

by dhimes 8y ago

Gibbon1 8y ago
Same rules for should apply to wage theft as ordinary theft, more than $950 and it's a felony.
- lenticular 8y ago
  This isn't wage theft since they are independent contractors. It's more like a company stiffing a supplier. More of a civil than criminal matter. Of course, these folks wouldn't have the resources to sue anyway, even if they weren't bound by binding arbitration.
  - aqme28 8y ago
    > More of a civil than criminal matter I think the question though is _why_ is that? If I steal $950 from someone then it's criminal, but if I refuse to pay them what I agreed then it's civil. It's an odd discrepancy IMO.
    - gbear605 8y ago
      For one, we probably don't need the police to come and arrest Instacart's CEO in this case.
      - aqme28 8y ago
        /shrug In this case they're doing something (questionably) legal but terrible. There are plenty of cases out there of outright wage theft. I wouldn't have a problem with the people in charge of those decisions getting arrested.
      - dingo_bat 8y ago
        Why not? If you stole $950 from a random guy on the street wouldn't you get arrested?
    - lenticular 8y ago
      I bet the U.S. Chamber of Commerce can tell you the answer to this one.
    - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
      Well, if you steal it, it's criminal, but that's simply because that's the definition of theft. Taking stuff away from people, though, is not necessarily theft, and also not necessarily criminal. If you accidentally take someone else's property because you confused it with your own, for example, that's not criminal, but the other party still has a civil claim against you (namely, to be given back their property). On the other hand, if you intentionally mislead someone into providing you with some service or product, promising to pay them for it, even though you never intended to pay, that constitutes fraud and is very much criminal. Generally, it's criminal if it's in the interest of the public and civil if it is primarily in the interest of some party. Not paying some debt because you actually have doubts that you have to pay, or due to an honest mistake is not really something that affects anyone else. Someone intentionally causing situatons where others can't rely on them fulfilling their legal oblications can erode trust in a society, therefore it is in the public interest to prevent that. The boundaries can be fuzzy, but wage theft can very much be criminal.
  - TheCoelacanth 8y ago
    They are also committing fraud by telling customers it is a "tip" rather than a "donation to Instacart".
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
    > This isn't wage theft since they are independent contractors. It's more like a company stiffing a supplier. Why do you keep saying things to this affect? A company stiffing a supplier is going to rapidly find themselves without suppliers, or the supplier can afford to / accounts for being stiffed on some orders. An independent contractor who works for one, or maybe two very similar types of, company is very much like an employee in every way that matters to that individual “independent” contractor, and literally nothing like a B2B supplier. Additionally, you seem preoccupied with existing legislation as though it has some higher virtue, whereas in reality the law can be, and frequently is, unjust and absurd.
lenticular 8y ago
That's not necessarily true. Folks in the gig economy are often classed as "independent contractors" and thus are not subject to the Fair Labor Standards Act, including minimum wage laws. They also are not entitled to, nor almost ever receive, reimbursements for work expenses. When you are talking about using your own vehicle and paying for depreciation, mechanical work, and gas, this is considerable. It often winds up being an implicit loan against one's own vehicle. I'd be surprised if calling something a "tip" makes it legally obligated to go to a contractor. I'm sure their lawyers are very aware of the law on this. As someone else said, there is almost certainly a binding arbitration clause. This removes the possibility of individual or class-action lawsuits. edit: The abuse of the term "independent contractor" is just one of many examples of how labor law enforcement has become lax in the last several decades. How many people on this site aren't in management and work unpaid overtime?
- paulgb 8y ago
  That's a shame. I wonder if customers have any recourse? I'd feel absolutely defrauded if I found out a tip I made through a service like this was (effectively) going to the operator rather than the person who the app represented it as going to. I don't think "oh the tip went to the contractor we just lowered their wages by the same amount" sounds convincing in a court room.
  - nerpderp83 8y ago
    Class action lawsuit.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- gamblor956 8y ago
  I wouldn't be so sure about their lawyers being "very aware" of the law. If they were, they wouldn't have called it a "tip" in the first place, as "tip" has a specific legal meaning in most states and in the US tax code. In fact, I would hesitate to say that the lawyers for most startups have any clue what they're doing, as most seem to be in it to play startup lawyer rather than provide necessary legal advice to their client/employer.

Yep. They need to pay reimburse those workers with a penalty fee tacked on.

by dhimes 8y ago

Yep. They need to pay reimburse those workers with a penalty fee tacked on.

Gibbon1 8y ago

Same rules for should apply to wage theft as ordinary theft, more than $950 and it's a felony.

lenticular 8y ago
This isn't wage theft since they are independent contractors. It's more like a company stiffing a supplier. More of a civil than criminal matter. Of course, these folks wouldn't have the resources to sue anyway, even if they weren't bound by binding arbitration.
- aqme28 8y ago
  > More of a civil than criminal matter I think the question though is _why_ is that? If I steal $950 from someone then it's criminal, but if I refuse to pay them what I agreed then it's civil. It's an odd discrepancy IMO.
  - gbear605 8y ago
    For one, we probably don't need the police to come and arrest Instacart's CEO in this case.
    - aqme28 8y ago
      /shrug In this case they're doing something (questionably) legal but terrible. There are plenty of cases out there of outright wage theft. I wouldn't have a problem with the people in charge of those decisions getting arrested.
    - dingo_bat 8y ago
      Why not? If you stole $950 from a random guy on the street wouldn't you get arrested?
  - lenticular 8y ago
    I bet the U.S. Chamber of Commerce can tell you the answer to this one.
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
    Well, if you steal it, it's criminal, but that's simply because that's the definition of theft. Taking stuff away from people, though, is not necessarily theft, and also not necessarily criminal. If you accidentally take someone else's property because you confused it with your own, for example, that's not criminal, but the other party still has a civil claim against you (namely, to be given back their property). On the other hand, if you intentionally mislead someone into providing you with some service or product, promising to pay them for it, even though you never intended to pay, that constitutes fraud and is very much criminal. Generally, it's criminal if it's in the interest of the public and civil if it is primarily in the interest of some party. Not paying some debt because you actually have doubts that you have to pay, or due to an honest mistake is not really something that affects anyone else. Someone intentionally causing situatons where others can't rely on them fulfilling their legal oblications can erode trust in a society, therefore it is in the public interest to prevent that. The boundaries can be fuzzy, but wage theft can very much be criminal.
- TheCoelacanth 8y ago
  They are also committing fraud by telling customers it is a "tip" rather than a "donation to Instacart".
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  > This isn't wage theft since they are independent contractors. It's more like a company stiffing a supplier. Why do you keep saying things to this affect? A company stiffing a supplier is going to rapidly find themselves without suppliers, or the supplier can afford to / accounts for being stiffed on some orders. An independent contractor who works for one, or maybe two very similar types of, company is very much like an employee in every way that matters to that individual “independent” contractor, and literally nothing like a B2B supplier. Additionally, you seem preoccupied with existing legislation as though it has some higher virtue, whereas in reality the law can be, and frequently is, unjust and absurd.

lenticular 8y ago

That's not necessarily true. Folks in the gig economy are often classed as "independent contractors" and thus are not subject to the Fair Labor Standards Act, including minimum wage laws. They also are not entitled to, nor almost ever receive, reimbursements for work expenses. When you are talking about using your own vehicle and paying for depreciation, mechanical work, and gas, this is considerable. It often winds up being an implicit loan against one's own vehicle. I'd be surprised if calling something a "tip" makes it legally obligated to go to a contractor. I'm sure their lawyers are very aware of the law on this. As someone else said, there is almost certainly a binding arbitration clause. This removes the possibility of individual or class-action lawsuits. edit: The abuse of the term "independent contractor" is just one of many examples of how labor law enforcement has become lax in the last several decades. How many people on this site aren't in management and work unpaid overtime?

paulgb 8y ago
That's a shame. I wonder if customers have any recourse? I'd feel absolutely defrauded if I found out a tip I made through a service like this was (effectively) going to the operator rather than the person who the app represented it as going to. I don't think "oh the tip went to the contractor we just lowered their wages by the same amount" sounds convincing in a court room.
- nerpderp83 8y ago
  Class action lawsuit.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
gamblor956 8y ago
I wouldn't be so sure about their lawyers being "very aware" of the law. If they were, they wouldn't have called it a "tip" in the first place, as "tip" has a specific legal meaning in most states and in the US tax code. In fact, I would hesitate to say that the lawyers for most startups have any clue what they're doing, as most seem to be in it to play startup lawyer rather than provide necessary legal advice to their client/employer.