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This is why the tipping system in the US is absurd. The whole "you must tip because they get paid peanuts" argument is a circular logic. How about making sure t

This is why the tipping system in the US is absurd. The whole "you must tip because they get paid peanuts" argument is a circular logic. How about making sure that the worker gets paid fairly by their employer and customers can then optionally tip for outstanding service?

prolepunk 8y ago
It is absurd because its started as a racist system to exclude black people from service industry.
umanwizard 8y ago
The idea that things are the way they are because people are convinced by an "argument" is a common misconception. In reality, the system in the US is what it is because of the mostly random process of cultural development. Changing cultural norms is not easy in any society, even if you have good logical arguments against them.
- baroffoos 8y ago
  Especially in the US. Just look at their ancient measuring system.
  - waserwill 8y ago
    Hey, I really enjoy the imperial system (besides fahrenhiet). It gets more fun when you get beyond yards and pounds and into stones, hundredweight, and imperial tons and rods, chords, and furlongs.
    - rsynnott 8y ago
      Oddly, in Ireland, we often still use feet, inches, and stone, but mostly only for measuring _people_.
nck4222 8y ago
That's not the logic behind the tipping system. It's, "tipping incentives employees to perform well because they'll make more money for doing a better job". It doesn't work that way either, but that's the rationale. Forcing people to tip to ensure people get paid enough money is a consequence of the system, not the reasoning why the system is implemented.
- nitwit005 8y ago
  People do make the argument that you should tip generously because they're poorly paid.
  - ilikehurdles 8y ago
    The very people writing these workers’ paychecks are effectively making this argument.
    - megy 8y ago
      The very people collected those checks are making those arguments, directly. Lets be honest, service staff prefer the way it is. They can prey on their customers, and they end up making more than they would if paid min wage.
      - bunderbunder 8y ago
        Most service staff are probably thinking within a set framework, where getting a minimal base pay is a foregone conclusion. A more interesting and useful comparison would be to poll individuals who have held similar service industry jobs in countries that do and do not have tipping cultures, and ask them which they preferred and why.
      - ilikehurdles 8y ago
        Anecdotally, Montreal certainly has a tipping culture _and_ pays service staff the same minimum that everyone else is subject to. The restaurant prices aren’t any different from metros in the US. Really, there is no advantage to taking a lower wage to anyone but the restaurant owners issuing that wage.
komali2 8y ago
Fuck it pisses me off how the conversation in America somehow shifted to make everything the fault of the poor. Service disrupted because bus driver/garbage collector / teacher/hotel employee strike? How dare those selfish underpaid and overworked peasants stand up for reasonable hours! They should consider themselves lucky they have a job at all! (It should be: how dare the corporations or federal agencies pay so little to their employees that their only recourse was to risk their livelihood by walking off the job) How about that case where the teacher used her health insurance to pay for an impoverished student's pills? She committed insurance fraud, she's just raising rates for everyone else! (Never mind that rates will be as high as an insurance company can legally get away with in this insane profit driven healthcare industry) Or the housing crisis. Stupid proletariat, taking loans they knew they couldn't afford! Why didn't they educate themselves? (Instead of 1. Why weren't banks doing due diligence 2. Why were banks allowed to not do due diligence 3. Why the fuck don't they teach us basic financial skills in elementary school?)
- dzonga 8y ago
  capitalists!! leeching as usual!! blame the poor, is the mantra in the US. & the Illusion of convincing the poor that they can join the rich capitalist. r > g
  - dang 8y ago
    Please don't take HN threads further into ideological flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
throwaway415415 8y ago
This is why I refuse to tip in restaurants. Most people in san francisco that I know don't tip and as a consequence most waiters here don't expect a tip.
- csa 8y ago
  > This is why I refuse to tip in restaurants. Most people in san francisco that I know don't tip and as a consequence most waiters here don't expect a tip. This is absolutely fucking hilarious. I swear someone who is not from the US is going to quote your throwaway account as being gospel about how things are changing in the US. Thank your for making my day brighter with your humor.
  - throwaway415415 8y ago
    Not a joke.

prolepunk 8y ago

It is absurd because its started as a racist system to exclude black people from service industry.

umanwizard 8y ago

The idea that things are the way they are because people are convinced by an "argument" is a common misconception. In reality, the system in the US is what it is because of the mostly random process of cultural development. Changing cultural norms is not easy in any society, even if you have good logical arguments against them.

baroffoos 8y ago
Especially in the US. Just look at their ancient measuring system.
- waserwill 8y ago
  Hey, I really enjoy the imperial system (besides fahrenhiet). It gets more fun when you get beyond yards and pounds and into stones, hundredweight, and imperial tons and rods, chords, and furlongs.
  - rsynnott 8y ago
    Oddly, in Ireland, we often still use feet, inches, and stone, but mostly only for measuring _people_.

nck4222 8y ago

That's not the logic behind the tipping system. It's, "tipping incentives employees to perform well because they'll make more money for doing a better job". It doesn't work that way either, but that's the rationale. Forcing people to tip to ensure people get paid enough money is a consequence of the system, not the reasoning why the system is implemented.

nitwit005 8y ago
People do make the argument that you should tip generously because they're poorly paid.
- ilikehurdles 8y ago
  The very people writing these workers’ paychecks are effectively making this argument.
  - megy 8y ago
    The very people collected those checks are making those arguments, directly. Lets be honest, service staff prefer the way it is. They can prey on their customers, and they end up making more than they would if paid min wage.
    - bunderbunder 8y ago
      Most service staff are probably thinking within a set framework, where getting a minimal base pay is a foregone conclusion. A more interesting and useful comparison would be to poll individuals who have held similar service industry jobs in countries that do and do not have tipping cultures, and ask them which they preferred and why.
    - ilikehurdles 8y ago
      Anecdotally, Montreal certainly has a tipping culture _and_ pays service staff the same minimum that everyone else is subject to. The restaurant prices aren’t any different from metros in the US. Really, there is no advantage to taking a lower wage to anyone but the restaurant owners issuing that wage.

komali2 8y ago

Fuck it pisses me off how the conversation in America somehow shifted to make everything the fault of the poor. Service disrupted because bus driver/garbage collector / teacher/hotel employee strike? How dare those selfish underpaid and overworked peasants stand up for reasonable hours! They should consider themselves lucky they have a job at all! (It should be: how dare the corporations or federal agencies pay so little to their employees that their only recourse was to risk their livelihood by walking off the job) How about that case where the teacher used her health insurance to pay for an impoverished student's pills? She committed insurance fraud, she's just raising rates for everyone else! (Never mind that rates will be as high as an insurance company can legally get away with in this insane profit driven healthcare industry) Or the housing crisis. Stupid proletariat, taking loans they knew they couldn't afford! Why didn't they educate themselves? (Instead of 1. Why weren't banks doing due diligence 2. Why were banks allowed to not do due diligence 3. Why the fuck don't they teach us basic financial skills in elementary school?)

dzonga 8y ago
capitalists!! leeching as usual!! blame the poor, is the mantra in the US. & the Illusion of convincing the poor that they can join the rich capitalist. r > g
- dang 8y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into ideological flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

throwaway415415 8y ago

This is why I refuse to tip in restaurants. Most people in san francisco that I know don't tip and as a consequence most waiters here don't expect a tip.

csa 8y ago
> This is why I refuse to tip in restaurants. Most people in san francisco that I know don't tip and as a consequence most waiters here don't expect a tip. This is absolutely fucking hilarious. I swear someone who is not from the US is going to quote your throwaway account as being gospel about how things are changing in the US. Thank your for making my day brighter with your humor.
- throwaway415415 8y ago
  Not a joke.