5 ms·

It is my opinion that Lennart Poettering is the software equivalent of Thomas Midgley Jr., the inventor of both leaded gasoline and chlorofluorocarbons.[1] Thi

by chroma 8y ago

It is my opinion that Lennart Poettering is the software equivalent of Thomas Midgley Jr., the inventor of both leaded gasoline and chlorofluorocarbons.[1] This is the person behind PulseAudio, Avahi, and systemd. In any sane world, these software projects would have been stillborn. Sensible alternatives would have outcompeted them. Instead, Red Hat did their best to foist them upon the community. They promised that after the initial adoption, all the wrinkles would be ironed out. All three times this was not true. I hate to appear so cynical, and I'm certain that Red Hat didn't intentionally pursue this strategy, but it sure is convenient for them that the harder Linux is to use, the more they can sell support contracts. Not so convenient for people who actually want to use Linux. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr.

darkpuma 8y ago
You might be giving Lennart too much credit. As the author of the article points out, Lennart didn't invent PulseAudio and systemd so much as he ripped them off (poorly) from coreaudio and launchd. To compare him to any inventor seems too flattering.
- mixmastamyk 8y ago
  Also not a huge fan but it works better than a bunch of shell scripts.
  - flukus 8y ago
    Don't you still have to resort to shell scripts for anything slightly complicated (mounting a drive on a specific network connection) and just have systemd invoke them?
    - arminiusreturns 8y ago
      So far this is a particular thing I have run into. DevOps (yelling): no more shell scripts Devs: systemd fstab is all kinds of fucked for nfsv4 Devs: Writes super complicated script to mount Me/DevOps: Makes ansible script to make systemd mount paired with service that is basically a wrapper for... a shell script...
  - michaelmrose 8y ago
    Because runit openrc perp and s6 aren't a thing?
    - JdeBP 8y ago
      Don't forget the Service Access Facility. * http://jdebp.eu./FGA/unix-service-access-facility.html http://jdebp.eu./FGA/unix-service-access-facility.html * http://jdebp.eu./FGA/daemontools-family.html http://jdebp.eu./FGA/daemontools-family.html
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    It works worse than launchd, which Lennart ripped off. My point here is that calling a ripoff artist an inventor is being far too flattering. (And for the record I wouldn't call Torvalds an inventor either, even though he has more sense than Lennart.)
- redwall_hp 8y ago
  Avahi is just a reimplementation of something Apple developed, too. Apple developed zeroconf networking, with their implementation of the standard being Bonjour. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avahi_(software)#Avahi_vs._Bonjour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avahi_(software)#Avahi_vs._Bon...
ernst_klim 8y ago
>Sensible alternatives would have outcompeted them. Of course, and they didn't, because there were no sensible alternatives on linux. All these projects were clones of decently engineered macos projects, before they were created, linux people used some truly silly staff like sysvinit. I would use something better than pulse and systemd, but there is nothing better available.
- antt 8y ago
  Jack and runit. They manage better performance in real world use cases with a fraction of the manpower invested in them. I wonder what will happen to the suite of projects supported by redhat now that they are owned by IBM however.
  - ernst_klim 8y ago
    >Jack and runit. Jack as a regular sound daemon? are you joking? Have you tried to run jack with several audio sources and audio outputs (including bt headset) without pre-configuration? It's not a pulse alternative, it's a low-latency daemon for professional stuff. Consumer oriented daemon should just work. >runit Does it do anything beyond service managing? Login, timers, bootloader, containers, logging facilities? >runit starts /etc/runit/1 Wait, does it simply run sh scripts? No, thank you.
- jiveturkey 8y ago
  > All these projects were clones of decently engineered macos projects systemd is the third world copy of Solaris SMF, is it not?
majewsky 8y ago
> It is my opinion that Lennart Poettering is the software equivalent of Thomas Midgley Jr., the inventor of both leaded gasoline and chlorofluorocarbons. Considering that Midgley Jr. is (indirectly) responsible for the suffering and potentially death of many humans and other beings, I submit that this (in spirit) triggers Godwin's Law. The debate is therefore over.
- zeveb 8y ago
  > Considering that Midgley Jr. is (indirectly) responsible for the suffering and potentially death of many humans and other beings Poettering is directly responsible for the suffering of many human beings, as indicated by threads like this. It'd be difficult and unfair to accuse him of being even indirectly responsible for anyone's death, though.
Sammi 8y ago
Which alternative to PulseAudio, Avahi, and Systemd exists for Linux that provide the same features? I'm not aware of any audio daemon that is as feature rich and flexible and PulseAudio. None of the alternatives fit the same general purpose use case that is expected in a modern desktop that needs to compete with Mac OS and Windows 10.
- bjourne 8y ago
  If you use a modern Linux system with KDE, you can try removing PA. Odds are you won't notice that it is gone. Not saying that network audio is a bad feature per se, but in my ten years of using PA, I have never needed it. IMO, systemd and Avahi are fundamentally different from PA in that most users have no need for the latter but almost everyone for the former.
  - m45t3r 8y ago
    Because KDE has Phonon, an audio subsystem way more complex than PulseAudio (and in my experience, more bugged too). Things like hotplug, Bluetooth devices and as such shouldn't be managed by your desktop manager, unless you want for things like hotplug and Bluetooth to only work in KDE.
    - emilsedgh 8y ago
      Phonon is only an abstraction layer with API and ABI guarantees so every time a new technology comes and goes, all app developers wouldn't have to port their existing codebases. Funny story: During KDE 4.0 development, KDE introduced Solid library. Which abstracted HAL. HAL was Linux'es "Hardware Abstraction Layer". So HAL developers mocked KDE and got some tshirts that said "KDE Abstracted my abstraction layer". 1-2 years later HAL was deprecated. And Solid got a new upower/udev backend and no KDE developer had to port away their code from HAL to anything else. Phonon's situation is similar. Xine, gstream, vlc, these technologies come and go. KDE apps don't care. Also Phonon can get a QuickTime backend when it's built for Mac or something else for Windows.
    - bjourne 8y ago
asark 8y ago
> This is the person behind PulseAudio, Avahi, and systemd. Huh, I didn't know he was behind Avahi. That... explains some things. Thanks.

by chroma 8y ago

darkpuma 8y ago

You might be giving Lennart too much credit. As the author of the article points out, Lennart didn't invent PulseAudio and systemd so much as he ripped them off (poorly) from coreaudio and launchd. To compare him to any inventor seems too flattering.

mixmastamyk 8y ago
Also not a huge fan but it works better than a bunch of shell scripts.
- flukus 8y ago
  Don't you still have to resort to shell scripts for anything slightly complicated (mounting a drive on a specific network connection) and just have systemd invoke them?
  - arminiusreturns 8y ago
    So far this is a particular thing I have run into. DevOps (yelling): no more shell scripts Devs: systemd fstab is all kinds of fucked for nfsv4 Devs: Writes super complicated script to mount Me/DevOps: Makes ansible script to make systemd mount paired with service that is basically a wrapper for... a shell script...
- michaelmrose 8y ago
  Because runit openrc perp and s6 aren't a thing?
  - JdeBP 8y ago
    Don't forget the Service Access Facility. * http://jdebp.eu./FGA/unix-service-access-facility.html http://jdebp.eu./FGA/unix-service-access-facility.html * http://jdebp.eu./FGA/daemontools-family.html http://jdebp.eu./FGA/daemontools-family.html
- darkpuma 8y ago
  It works worse than launchd, which Lennart ripped off. My point here is that calling a ripoff artist an inventor is being far too flattering. (And for the record I wouldn't call Torvalds an inventor either, even though he has more sense than Lennart.)
redwall_hp 8y ago
Avahi is just a reimplementation of something Apple developed, too. Apple developed zeroconf networking, with their implementation of the standard being Bonjour. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avahi_(software)#Avahi_vs._Bonjour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avahi_(software)#Avahi_vs._Bon...

ernst_klim 8y ago

>Sensible alternatives would have outcompeted them. Of course, and they didn't, because there were no sensible alternatives on linux. All these projects were clones of decently engineered macos projects, before they were created, linux people used some truly silly staff like sysvinit. I would use something better than pulse and systemd, but there is nothing better available.

antt 8y ago
Jack and runit. They manage better performance in real world use cases with a fraction of the manpower invested in them. I wonder what will happen to the suite of projects supported by redhat now that they are owned by IBM however.
- ernst_klim 8y ago
  >Jack and runit. Jack as a regular sound daemon? are you joking? Have you tried to run jack with several audio sources and audio outputs (including bt headset) without pre-configuration? It's not a pulse alternative, it's a low-latency daemon for professional stuff. Consumer oriented daemon should just work. >runit Does it do anything beyond service managing? Login, timers, bootloader, containers, logging facilities? >runit starts /etc/runit/1 Wait, does it simply run sh scripts? No, thank you.
jiveturkey 8y ago
> All these projects were clones of decently engineered macos projects systemd is the third world copy of Solaris SMF, is it not?

majewsky 8y ago

> It is my opinion that Lennart Poettering is the software equivalent of Thomas Midgley Jr., the inventor of both leaded gasoline and chlorofluorocarbons. Considering that Midgley Jr. is (indirectly) responsible for the suffering and potentially death of many humans and other beings, I submit that this (in spirit) triggers Godwin's Law. The debate is therefore over.

zeveb 8y ago
> Considering that Midgley Jr. is (indirectly) responsible for the suffering and potentially death of many humans and other beings Poettering is directly responsible for the suffering of many human beings, as indicated by threads like this. It'd be difficult and unfair to accuse him of being even indirectly responsible for anyone's death, though.

Sammi 8y ago

Which alternative to PulseAudio, Avahi, and Systemd exists for Linux that provide the same features? I'm not aware of any audio daemon that is as feature rich and flexible and PulseAudio. None of the alternatives fit the same general purpose use case that is expected in a modern desktop that needs to compete with Mac OS and Windows 10.

bjourne 8y ago
If you use a modern Linux system with KDE, you can try removing PA. Odds are you won't notice that it is gone. Not saying that network audio is a bad feature per se, but in my ten years of using PA, I have never needed it. IMO, systemd and Avahi are fundamentally different from PA in that most users have no need for the latter but almost everyone for the former.
- m45t3r 8y ago
  Because KDE has Phonon, an audio subsystem way more complex than PulseAudio (and in my experience, more bugged too). Things like hotplug, Bluetooth devices and as such shouldn't be managed by your desktop manager, unless you want for things like hotplug and Bluetooth to only work in KDE.
  - emilsedgh 8y ago
    Phonon is only an abstraction layer with API and ABI guarantees so every time a new technology comes and goes, all app developers wouldn't have to port their existing codebases. Funny story: During KDE 4.0 development, KDE introduced Solid library. Which abstracted HAL. HAL was Linux'es "Hardware Abstraction Layer". So HAL developers mocked KDE and got some tshirts that said "KDE Abstracted my abstraction layer". 1-2 years later HAL was deprecated. And Solid got a new upower/udev backend and no KDE developer had to port away their code from HAL to anything else. Phonon's situation is similar. Xine, gstream, vlc, these technologies come and go. KDE apps don't care. Also Phonon can get a QuickTime backend when it's built for Mac or something else for Windows.
  - bjourne 8y ago

asark 8y ago

> This is the person behind PulseAudio, Avahi, and systemd. Huh, I didn't know he was behind Avahi. That... explains some things. Thanks.