3 ms·

This defeatist attitude is what's going to make this come true for you. McDonald? really? How about consulting? Starting your own shit? Perhaps looking ou

This defeatist attitude is what's going to make this come true for you. McDonald? really? How about consulting? Starting your own shit? Perhaps looking outside of the West Coast and other places you might be appreciated? How about the govt, schools, hospitals, banks, big ol boring enterprises? How about other countries? Seriously, you have option and everyone does. If you are smart enough to pass the hiring committee at FANG, you are obviously smart enough to accomplish anytime you put your mind to. I often see these stories and it's often, "poor old me, woe unto me..." and you know what? Yeah, woe unto them indeed. If you believe you can, you can, if you believe you can't, you can't.

democracy 8y ago
It is a good motivational speech however things can be much more complex at some stage...
peterwwillis 8y ago
This unrealistic anti-pep-talk isn't helping anyone but yourself. When you're actually painted into a corner in life, and really are facing a bad situation with no support whatsoever, you get defeatist. It happens. Human beings have feelings, and no amount of vapid self-actualization bullshit is going to make you stop feeling those feelings. And sometimes there really aren't any other options. If you have no money, and nobody is hiring you, and you have bills to pay, and you have no money, you will have to accept a "lesser" job. This isn't "defeatist", it's real life. You can't wish yourself out of a bad situation. People often have to work hard, from the bottom, until they get a foothold, and then slowly, slowly work back up. But it's still massively more difficult to do any of this when you're older, because nobody wants anything to do with you. You're the awkward old guy at networking events, in job interviews, virtually anywhere anyone can see or hear you. Nobody - govt, schools, hospitals, banks, enterprises - nobody wants to hire an old person. Also - "starting your own shit" ? "other countries" ? How is somebody with no money, no contacts, and no collateral, supposed to pull those off? Just wander into a bank and bullshit your way into a loan? Corner some VCs at a cafe in the valley and win $50K off an elevator pitch?
- WalterBright 8y ago
  > How is somebody with no money, no contacts, and no collateral, supposed to pull those off? The ones I know who did it started by contributing to open source projects and developing a reputation. Employers often canvas open source projects looking to hire the better contributors.
  - towaway1138 8y ago
    I used to assume this was a path. The two luminaries I know (more famous than you even) did not seem to have luck with it. My advice would be to do personal projects for the pure enjoyment of it, and for learning. I wouldn't expect great career payback, though.
    - WalterBright 8y ago
      It would need to be a fairly high profile open source project, one that would attract the attention of recruiters. Of course, you'd be compared against the other high profile contributors to it, but what better way to show you can do it? There are other ways to raise one's profile. One could join the C++ Standard committee and actively participate in it. The top C++ companies will notice you. Or the standards committee of your favorite language. One can submit papers to relevant conferences. Companies often attend conferences for the specific purpose of recruiting. Even better, you can do the above without needing to relocate, and with minimal investment of funds.
      - jammygit 8y ago
        Interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing
lsc 8y ago
>If you believe you can, you can, if you believe you can't, you can't. As a technical individual contributor, what matters is what you can do, not how you feel. Edit: Yes, yes, all absolute statements are wrong; Attitude does matter some for technical jobs. But what you can do is overwhelmingly more important than your attitude in tech jobs, just like your attitude is overwhelmingly more important in management and sales. Yes, at interviews, you must act engaged, and you must display what you can do, and that is kind of sales, but it's really easy mode sales. Sure, I mean, it depends on job role. In sales? yeah, that attitude is required. (To be clear, even in sales, that attitude is not sufficient. While it is absolutely necessary to project that sort of confidence, that unshakable self-belief, it is not sufficient. You still need to sell. Attitude is sometimes required; it is never enough.) More specifically to the person you are responding to? when it comes to individual contributor technical roles? As long as you are engaged and interested in the technical questions? It's cool. Having a ridiculous Tony Robins kind of attitude can actually hurt you there; Most technical people don't want to work with a person who's true calling was sales. When I'm interviewing someone like that, every instinct I have is telling me to get them out of the office. I mean, I do my best to overcome my prejudices, and I will still evaluate them on technical merit, but man, it's not easy. I think that outside of sales and management (note, that's a big part of running a business) defeatist talk and feeling are kinda normal, and unless they are overwhelming for too long, not really a problem. This is the difference with technical work. What matters is not how you feel or what you project, but what you can do While getting out from under my business I was super depressed and engaged in a lot of "negative self-talk" in public. And yeah, it probably hurt me on selling that business (I mean, I think I still got a fair deal for what the business was at the time.) but just because I wrote like I was depressed online, as long as I kept going for interviews (and acting engaged during those interviews) I don't think it hurt my prospects as a technical individual contributor much. I mean, sales is... a different world from technical work. And yeah, I am going to have to come up with a new attitude if I want to go into management ever again But as a technical individual contributor? Ability is key, not attitude.
normal_man 8y ago
>If you believe you can, you can, if you believe you can't, you can't. This is what you tell a child, not a middle aged professional. You should really rethink how you talk to people.
towaway1138 8y ago
There's something to this. Certainly you have to limit the duration of feeling sorry for yourself. But you also need to be a hard-nosed realist. Play the cards you actually have--not the ones you wish you had--as well as you can.

democracy 8y ago

It is a good motivational speech however things can be much more complex at some stage...

peterwwillis 8y ago

This unrealistic anti-pep-talk isn't helping anyone but yourself. When you're actually painted into a corner in life, and really are facing a bad situation with no support whatsoever, you get defeatist. It happens. Human beings have feelings, and no amount of vapid self-actualization bullshit is going to make you stop feeling those feelings. And sometimes there really aren't any other options. If you have no money, and nobody is hiring you, and you have bills to pay, and you have no money, you will have to accept a "lesser" job. This isn't "defeatist", it's real life. You can't wish yourself out of a bad situation. People often have to work hard, from the bottom, until they get a foothold, and then slowly, slowly work back up. But it's still massively more difficult to do any of this when you're older, because nobody wants anything to do with you. You're the awkward old guy at networking events, in job interviews, virtually anywhere anyone can see or hear you. Nobody - govt, schools, hospitals, banks, enterprises - nobody wants to hire an old person. Also - "starting your own shit" ? "other countries" ? How is somebody with no money, no contacts, and no collateral, supposed to pull those off? Just wander into a bank and bullshit your way into a loan? Corner some VCs at a cafe in the valley and win $50K off an elevator pitch?

WalterBright 8y ago
> How is somebody with no money, no contacts, and no collateral, supposed to pull those off? The ones I know who did it started by contributing to open source projects and developing a reputation. Employers often canvas open source projects looking to hire the better contributors.
- towaway1138 8y ago
  I used to assume this was a path. The two luminaries I know (more famous than you even) did not seem to have luck with it. My advice would be to do personal projects for the pure enjoyment of it, and for learning. I wouldn't expect great career payback, though.
  - WalterBright 8y ago
    It would need to be a fairly high profile open source project, one that would attract the attention of recruiters. Of course, you'd be compared against the other high profile contributors to it, but what better way to show you can do it? There are other ways to raise one's profile. One could join the C++ Standard committee and actively participate in it. The top C++ companies will notice you. Or the standards committee of your favorite language. One can submit papers to relevant conferences. Companies often attend conferences for the specific purpose of recruiting. Even better, you can do the above without needing to relocate, and with minimal investment of funds.
    - jammygit 8y ago
      Interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing

lsc 8y ago

>If you believe you can, you can, if you believe you can't, you can't. As a technical individual contributor, what matters is what you can do, not how you feel. Edit: Yes, yes, all absolute statements are wrong; Attitude does matter some for technical jobs. But what you can do is overwhelmingly more important than your attitude in tech jobs, just like your attitude is overwhelmingly more important in management and sales. Yes, at interviews, you must act engaged, and you must display what you can do, and that is kind of sales, but it's really easy mode sales. Sure, I mean, it depends on job role. In sales? yeah, that attitude is required. (To be clear, even in sales, that attitude is not sufficient. While it is absolutely necessary to project that sort of confidence, that unshakable self-belief, it is not sufficient. You still need to sell. Attitude is sometimes required; it is never enough.) More specifically to the person you are responding to? when it comes to individual contributor technical roles? As long as you are engaged and interested in the technical questions? It's cool. Having a ridiculous Tony Robins kind of attitude can actually hurt you there; Most technical people don't want to work with a person who's true calling was sales. When I'm interviewing someone like that, every instinct I have is telling me to get them out of the office. I mean, I do my best to overcome my prejudices, and I will still evaluate them on technical merit, but man, it's not easy. I think that outside of sales and management (note, that's a big part of running a business) defeatist talk and feeling are kinda normal, and unless they are overwhelming for too long, not really a problem. This is the difference with technical work. What matters is not how you feel or what you project, but what you can do While getting out from under my business I was super depressed and engaged in a lot of "negative self-talk" in public. And yeah, it probably hurt me on selling that business (I mean, I think I still got a fair deal for what the business was at the time.) but just because I wrote like I was depressed online, as long as I kept going for interviews (and acting engaged during those interviews) I don't think it hurt my prospects as a technical individual contributor much. I mean, sales is... a different world from technical work. And yeah, I am going to have to come up with a new attitude if I want to go into management ever again But as a technical individual contributor? Ability is key, not attitude.

normal_man 8y ago

>If you believe you can, you can, if you believe you can't, you can't. This is what you tell a child, not a middle aged professional. You should really rethink how you talk to people.

towaway1138 8y ago

There's something to this. Certainly you have to limit the duration of feeling sorry for yourself. But you also need to be a hard-nosed realist. Play the cards you actually have--not the ones you wish you had--as well as you can.