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It's not just you. I'd recommend using a CSS framework. Have you checked out Bootstrap [0]? I was very much the same way (focused on backend). CSS is just a mea

It's not just you. I'd recommend using a CSS framework. Have you checked out Bootstrap [0]? I was very much the same way (focused on backend). CSS is just a means to an end for me, in that I just wanted something that doesn't look like total garbage, so I used Bootstrap for the frontend bits. Allows you to quickly get up and running using the examples without learning too much CSS [1]. Just find something that looks like what you want and then copy/paste. Much much easier. They have a pretty nice grid system that allows you all types of formatting options (desktop/mobile). All types of text formatting options too. Honestly, I think you're way better off learning something like Bootstrap unless you want to do this professionally. [0] https://getbootstrap.com/ https://getbootstrap.com/ [1] https://getbootstrap.com/docs/4.2/examples/ https://getbootstrap.com/docs/4.2/examples/ EDIT: downvotes? Why not mention why you don't like bootstrap and share with the larger thread? At least, then it is useful to everyone else.

odilontalk 8y ago
There are some use cases for Bootstrap for sure, but I feel you need grasp the basics of CSS first. It is like using jQuery for everything instead learn proper Javascript.
- WestCoastJustin 8y ago
  Until you get to the point where you are reinventing jQuery vs just using it. The same thing can happen with CSS, you are formatting all this stuff, getting a layout, spending tons of time fixing layout issues in CSS, etc. Where your time might be better spent just using Bootstrap and working on your app vs CSS.
aphextron 8y ago
Don't use bootstrap for anything beyond personal project prototypes. It ends up being a complete nightmare for maintenance. Coupling of DOM with presentation and state is the number one thing we should be avoiding in modern JS apps.
- WestCoastJustin 8y ago
  Interesting, I'll have to read about that. This has totally not been my experience.
  - aphextron 8y ago
    It works great... for a while. Then you end up wanting to tweak something here and there, start adding classes to things, and you realize you want to do something that requires changes to the DOM within a component and you're screwed. Or you ignore the fact that the right way would be modifying the DOM, use some hacky CSS to kludge it, and you start getting browser inconsistencies. Either way you end up stuck with 100k of dependencies to style a popover and a dropdown that could have just been defined in a design system from the get-go and done with minimal CSS in a React/Vue type architecture scoped to the individual component.
    - WestCoastJustin 8y ago
      Ah, that does make sense. Thanks for adding the examples -- I can totally see this happening. Guess I just haven't been bitten by that yet. Although, I do remember running some mass regex through the codebase to update class names when bootstrap changes something. Or, changing templates to use some new formatting. This can be nerve wracking.

odilontalk 8y ago

There are some use cases for Bootstrap for sure, but I feel you need grasp the basics of CSS first. It is like using jQuery for everything instead learn proper Javascript.

WestCoastJustin 8y ago
Until you get to the point where you are reinventing jQuery vs just using it. The same thing can happen with CSS, you are formatting all this stuff, getting a layout, spending tons of time fixing layout issues in CSS, etc. Where your time might be better spent just using Bootstrap and working on your app vs CSS.

aphextron 8y ago

Don't use bootstrap for anything beyond personal project prototypes. It ends up being a complete nightmare for maintenance. Coupling of DOM with presentation and state is the number one thing we should be avoiding in modern JS apps.

WestCoastJustin 8y ago
Interesting, I'll have to read about that. This has totally not been my experience.
- aphextron 8y ago
  It works great... for a while. Then you end up wanting to tweak something here and there, start adding classes to things, and you realize you want to do something that requires changes to the DOM within a component and you're screwed. Or you ignore the fact that the right way would be modifying the DOM, use some hacky CSS to kludge it, and you start getting browser inconsistencies. Either way you end up stuck with 100k of dependencies to style a popover and a dropdown that could have just been defined in a design system from the get-go and done with minimal CSS in a React/Vue type architecture scoped to the individual component.
  - WestCoastJustin 8y ago
    Ah, that does make sense. Thanks for adding the examples -- I can totally see this happening. Guess I just haven't been bitten by that yet. Although, I do remember running some mass regex through the codebase to update class names when bootstrap changes something. Or, changing templates to use some new formatting. This can be nerve wracking.