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Fun story. I worked at a "trendy" SV startup. I was hired in a wave of employees around the start of the year. I took no PTO. Around the end of the year they an

Fun story. I worked at a "trendy" SV startup. I was hired in a wave of employees around the start of the year. I took no PTO. Around the end of the year they announce they are moving to an unlimited PTO plan. No one got paid for unused PTO that year.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jopsen 8y ago
So maybe take an extra 4 weeks off :)
Loughla 8y ago
I don't care for unlimited PTO. Here's why: When I accrue time off, you as the employer and I as the employee have a written contract on what that time is for, when it can be used, and why it can be used. It places parameters on my time, yes, but it also is an actual agreement between the two of us, in objective terms. Whereas unlimited PTO sounds nice, it also opens up more problems between myself and workplace 'culture'. It's so subjective and down to personal opinion as to whether or not I'm abusing the system. It just tastes bad. I've worked in both environments, and I much rather prefer the structured environment. There seems to be far less drama and nonsense related to taking time off.
- notyourday 8y ago
  Startups love unlimited PTO exactly because of this - unused PTO is not a liability in the event of acquisition or employee termination.
- hoaw 8y ago
  It really shouldn't be called "unlimited PTO". Something like "unguaranteed vacation" would be more accurate.
- finaliteration 8y ago
  Part of why I left my last job was due to its “unlimited PTO” policy feeling more like a “you don’t -actually- have any days we really owe you so you’ll catch shade every time you take time off” policy. I now work for a place where I have a set amount of PTO that accrues so I feel more entitled to using it without feeling bad about it because if I don’t then it’s gone. Unlimited PTO is one of those things that sounds great to potential employees who have never experienced it. Until you get in and realize you end up taking way less time off than if you just had 15 set days or whatever.
  - rdtsc 8y ago
    > “you don’t -actually- have any days we really owe you so you’ll catch shade every time you take time off” That's the idea behind it. It's a huge red flag for me. But it looks fantastic on paper. The problem is you don't know how you'll be judged if you do take the time off. They'll never come and say "hey it looks like you took 5 weeks off this year". They'll just say "it looks like you're not realizing your full potential". So it allows for a lot more sinister manipulation and control. It could even be coming from peers, managers, HR it doesn't matter. "Gee, so and so in on vacation... while we are slaving here at 8pm at night. - Haha. Of course he is, eye roll..." kind of stuff. And maybe the employee was having a family crisis and needed to spend time with their loved ones but it's not something they'll broadcast but people will imply various things and assume not the very best of intentions. If the company is so darn generous, just give everyone 6 weeks off and make everyone take it.
    - finaliteration 8y ago
      > The problem is you don't know how you'll be judged if you do take the time off. Exactly. It can also be incredibly inequitable. My previous job had a rule about not “abusing” the policy, but no one ever defined what abuse looked like. One of the final straws for me was hearing from someone from another department that they had taken 5 weeks off over the last 12 months whereas I worked over several holiday weekends and spent time away from family due to the pressure of “needing” to get something done.
    - ghaff 8y ago
- HashHishBang 8y ago
  I tend to agree with this point of view, but recently have started just taking more time off. At my current workplace I asked what their PTO policy was and everyone just kind of shrugged and told me to work it out with my manager. Which was admittedly concerning as there is 0 agreed parameters. However this idea of "0 agreement" between employer and employee is starting to grow on me. Time after time and article after article we see employers screwing employees for various reasons, including incompetence. At this point it seems like finding a genuinely positive actor is as much a matter of luck as it is dedication. So I suppose it's time to change/ I no longer subscribe to workplace or employer loyalty. After working in the industry for ~8 years I can never see myself staying at a company for more than 4-5. I don't trust my manager, HR department, C-levels, policies, etc. Hell I tell people upfront in interviews that I'm a terrible employee but very good at my job. Cycling back around to your points: >Whereas unlimited PTO sounds nice, it also opens up more problems between myself and workplace 'culture'. >...I much rather prefer the structured environment. There seems to be far less drama and nonsense related to taking time off. I counter with: What workplace culture? Edit: Formatting.
  - nambit 8y ago
    Can you quantify how many paid days off you took in the last year?
    - HashHishBang 8y ago
      20-25 workdays. I know 4 specific weeks plus random appointments and things like tacking on a Friday/Monday to what would've been a 3-day weekend.
- jlarocco 8y ago
  > When I accrue time off, you as the employer and I as the employee have a written contract on what that time is for, when it can be used, and why it can be used. It places parameters on my time, yes, but it also is an actual agreement between the two of us, in objective terms. > Whereas unlimited PTO sounds nice, it also opens up more problems between myself and workplace 'culture'. It's so subjective and down to personal opinion as to whether or not I'm abusing the system. TBH that sounds like the problem was that there wasn't a policy and they just said "unlimited PTO". I loved having "unlimited" PTO. Our policy was, for all practical purposes, the same as any other PTO policy, except no accrual. I wasn't a manager, so I can only comment on my experience, but I took 5 weeks off in my first year and nobody said a word about it. I know a few people got "warnings" for taking a lot more than average, but it had to be a LOT, and it was still always approved. And then we got bought by a company with a terrible policy :( A big problem I have with limited PTO is that it's a limited resource, so I hoard it because I don't want to "waste" it, and then I end up not taking much. And I don't think I'm the only one. With the unlimited policy few people would work from their mechanic's shop, or the airport, or the doctor's office, or anything like that. Realistically they weren't going to be productive, so they'd just take the time off and not worry about it. They didn't work 4 weeks to earn that day off, so it wasn't a big deal.
  - aplusbi 8y ago
    I have had a very similar experience. I would take 5-6 weeks off per year when I had unlimited PTO. Now I work for a more traditional company and I often hoard my PTO. I find the idea of time off more stressful now as it's a finite resource (I suppose it was finite at my last job as well, but less clearly defined how finite it was).
champagnepapi 8y ago
I wonder how companies that are located in states where employers are forced to payout unused days at the end of the year, deal with the idea of "unlimited"? How can they payout that out, but legally they are suppose to? I mostly feel like it (unlimited vacation) is a way for companies to save money.
- phonon 8y ago
  > How can they payout that out, but legally they are suppose to? They don't. https://hrdailyadvisor.blr.com/2017/05/24/permanent-vacation-use-lose-policies-payout-vacation-termination/ https://hrdailyadvisor.blr.com/2017/05/24/permanent-vacation... "For similar reasons, more employers are also experimenting with open or unlimited leave policies, which can offer the same benefit. The general idea of an open or unlimited vacation policy is that the employee doesn’t really accrue or earn a set amount of leave per pay period or year. Rather, leave is unlimited and may be subject to few, if any, restrictions beyond supervisor approval and a reasonable assurance that assigned duties, projects, clients, and other workload-related details are managed during the worker’s absence. Here, because employees are not accruing a set number of wage-equivalent hours per pay period, no compensation interest vests. After all, you can’t very well pay out “unlimited” vacation at termination."
  - fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
    >and a reasonable assurance that assigned duties, projects, clients, and other workload-related details are managed during the worker’s absence. I read that as if you are in a role with no backup or reasonable cover for your duties you can never take vacation. As I often find myself in that position I'd shy away from "unlimited vacation" roles.
  - baddox 8y ago
    This is literally the only reason that companies offer unlimited PTO. PTO accrual is a cash flow risk to employers.
- ticmasta 8y ago
  Unlimited in jurisdictions with legal minimums is set at the minimum in my experience. They usually say "You get unlimited vacation and are expected to take a minimum of X weeks per year". I've never seen a company the doesn't track time off regardless of their policy.
tracker1 8y ago
When a company I used to work at did the same, one of my coworkers started taking a "vacation" every other Friday and Monday. The same guy rarely used vacation time before, but was pretty much unavailable every other weekend after that. I left within a couple months after the change. Management seemed to be more concerned about average number of Jira items closed as opposed to real progress on the project(s) in question.
- guitarbill 8y ago
  > The same guy rarely used vacation time before, but was pretty much unavailable every other weekend after that. Oh no, somebody setting boundaries and not working weekends? Unacceptable! It's certainly possible there were other issues, but to me this sounds like sour grapes for not having the courage to pull off such a genius move yourself.
  - tracker1 8y ago
    I'm not sour at all, I think it was brilliant... also, he was basically taking a 4 day weekend every other week.
- throwanem 8y ago
  It sounds like he was working a weekend, then taking the two days surrounding the following weekend off, and repeat. Assuming that's correct, what are you complaining about here? That the guy was time-shifting his weekends, or that he was actually making use of the policy? In either case, why is it an issue?
  - tracker1 8y ago
    I'm not sure were the perception is coming from.. I think it was brilliant... not a complaint at all. Effectively was taking a 4-day weekend every other week and working 4-day weeks. The unavailable thing came down to being reachable in case of a support issue... I have no gripes about it what so ever.
- ghaff 8y ago
drugme 8y ago
Of course there's no such thing as "unlimited PTO" - it's just a gimmick, basically. So don't expect any decisions or statements made by companies offering "unlimited PTO" to be fair - or many any kind of sense, otherwise.
yborg 8y ago
Also worked at a company that eliminated the PTO benefit. That's essentially what "unlimited PTO" means, you are no longer guaranteed that any time off is paid, since it's explicitly at the discretion of your manager, and it no longer accrues in the event you leave or the company folds. This is usually combined with "unified time off" policies in which there is no defined sick time off either. The only exception, really, is time off mandated under FMLA. If I'm negotiating comp with such a company, I would add what would normally be the PTO I would receive at a place which has it as a defined benefit and use that number as what I would need to be offered in order to accept a position there.
reaperducer 8y ago
Companies have been screwing with employees over vacation forever. In the last century I worked for CBS. At the time, CBS had a policy where vacation rolled over from year to year. It was common for people to save up for a few years in order to take off for an entire month or two. When Westinghouse bought CBS, a memo went out that the policy changed to use-it-or-lose it. The memo went out around October, so for the next two months there was a massive crush of people trying to use their accrued vacation before the end of the year. On the plus side, a lot of the young employees and interns had to cover for the veterans, and in doing so got a lot of front-line experience they never would have anywhere else. Then when the vets came back from vacation and quit because they were pissed they'd lost so much banked vacation time, those new employees and interns all moved up in the ranks and ended up running the joint. (A broad generalization company-wide, but certainly a noticeable shift in the unit where I worked.)
- coredog64 8y ago
  My favorite story in this genre is an employer that would force employees to take vacation in order to make quarterly numbers look better (fewer obligations on the books) in order to juice earnings so that targets could be “met”. Every time they did it, they promised they’d never do it again. And then 18 months later they did it again.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

jopsen 8y ago

So maybe take an extra 4 weeks off :)

Loughla 8y ago

I don't care for unlimited PTO. Here's why: When I accrue time off, you as the employer and I as the employee have a written contract on what that time is for, when it can be used, and why it can be used. It places parameters on my time, yes, but it also is an actual agreement between the two of us, in objective terms. Whereas unlimited PTO sounds nice, it also opens up more problems between myself and workplace 'culture'. It's so subjective and down to personal opinion as to whether or not I'm abusing the system. It just tastes bad. I've worked in both environments, and I much rather prefer the structured environment. There seems to be far less drama and nonsense related to taking time off.

notyourday 8y ago
Startups love unlimited PTO exactly because of this - unused PTO is not a liability in the event of acquisition or employee termination.
hoaw 8y ago
It really shouldn't be called "unlimited PTO". Something like "unguaranteed vacation" would be more accurate.
finaliteration 8y ago
Part of why I left my last job was due to its “unlimited PTO” policy feeling more like a “you don’t -actually- have any days we really owe you so you’ll catch shade every time you take time off” policy. I now work for a place where I have a set amount of PTO that accrues so I feel more entitled to using it without feeling bad about it because if I don’t then it’s gone. Unlimited PTO is one of those things that sounds great to potential employees who have never experienced it. Until you get in and realize you end up taking way less time off than if you just had 15 set days or whatever.
- rdtsc 8y ago
  > “you don’t -actually- have any days we really owe you so you’ll catch shade every time you take time off” That's the idea behind it. It's a huge red flag for me. But it looks fantastic on paper. The problem is you don't know how you'll be judged if you do take the time off. They'll never come and say "hey it looks like you took 5 weeks off this year". They'll just say "it looks like you're not realizing your full potential". So it allows for a lot more sinister manipulation and control. It could even be coming from peers, managers, HR it doesn't matter. "Gee, so and so in on vacation... while we are slaving here at 8pm at night. - Haha. Of course he is, eye roll..." kind of stuff. And maybe the employee was having a family crisis and needed to spend time with their loved ones but it's not something they'll broadcast but people will imply various things and assume not the very best of intentions. If the company is so darn generous, just give everyone 6 weeks off and make everyone take it.
  - finaliteration 8y ago
    > The problem is you don't know how you'll be judged if you do take the time off. Exactly. It can also be incredibly inequitable. My previous job had a rule about not “abusing” the policy, but no one ever defined what abuse looked like. One of the final straws for me was hearing from someone from another department that they had taken 5 weeks off over the last 12 months whereas I worked over several holiday weekends and spent time away from family due to the pressure of “needing” to get something done.
  - ghaff 8y ago
HashHishBang 8y ago
I tend to agree with this point of view, but recently have started just taking more time off. At my current workplace I asked what their PTO policy was and everyone just kind of shrugged and told me to work it out with my manager. Which was admittedly concerning as there is 0 agreed parameters. However this idea of "0 agreement" between employer and employee is starting to grow on me. Time after time and article after article we see employers screwing employees for various reasons, including incompetence. At this point it seems like finding a genuinely positive actor is as much a matter of luck as it is dedication. So I suppose it's time to change/ I no longer subscribe to workplace or employer loyalty. After working in the industry for ~8 years I can never see myself staying at a company for more than 4-5. I don't trust my manager, HR department, C-levels, policies, etc. Hell I tell people upfront in interviews that I'm a terrible employee but very good at my job. Cycling back around to your points: >Whereas unlimited PTO sounds nice, it also opens up more problems between myself and workplace 'culture'. >...I much rather prefer the structured environment. There seems to be far less drama and nonsense related to taking time off. I counter with: What workplace culture? Edit: Formatting.
- nambit 8y ago
  Can you quantify how many paid days off you took in the last year?
  - HashHishBang 8y ago
    20-25 workdays. I know 4 specific weeks plus random appointments and things like tacking on a Friday/Monday to what would've been a 3-day weekend.
jlarocco 8y ago
> When I accrue time off, you as the employer and I as the employee have a written contract on what that time is for, when it can be used, and why it can be used. It places parameters on my time, yes, but it also is an actual agreement between the two of us, in objective terms. > Whereas unlimited PTO sounds nice, it also opens up more problems between myself and workplace 'culture'. It's so subjective and down to personal opinion as to whether or not I'm abusing the system. TBH that sounds like the problem was that there wasn't a policy and they just said "unlimited PTO". I loved having "unlimited" PTO. Our policy was, for all practical purposes, the same as any other PTO policy, except no accrual. I wasn't a manager, so I can only comment on my experience, but I took 5 weeks off in my first year and nobody said a word about it. I know a few people got "warnings" for taking a lot more than average, but it had to be a LOT, and it was still always approved. And then we got bought by a company with a terrible policy :( A big problem I have with limited PTO is that it's a limited resource, so I hoard it because I don't want to "waste" it, and then I end up not taking much. And I don't think I'm the only one. With the unlimited policy few people would work from their mechanic's shop, or the airport, or the doctor's office, or anything like that. Realistically they weren't going to be productive, so they'd just take the time off and not worry about it. They didn't work 4 weeks to earn that day off, so it wasn't a big deal.
- aplusbi 8y ago
  I have had a very similar experience. I would take 5-6 weeks off per year when I had unlimited PTO. Now I work for a more traditional company and I often hoard my PTO. I find the idea of time off more stressful now as it's a finite resource (I suppose it was finite at my last job as well, but less clearly defined how finite it was).

champagnepapi 8y ago

I wonder how companies that are located in states where employers are forced to payout unused days at the end of the year, deal with the idea of "unlimited"? How can they payout that out, but legally they are suppose to? I mostly feel like it (unlimited vacation) is a way for companies to save money.

phonon 8y ago
> How can they payout that out, but legally they are suppose to? They don't. https://hrdailyadvisor.blr.com/2017/05/24/permanent-vacation-use-lose-policies-payout-vacation-termination/ https://hrdailyadvisor.blr.com/2017/05/24/permanent-vacation... "For similar reasons, more employers are also experimenting with open or unlimited leave policies, which can offer the same benefit. The general idea of an open or unlimited vacation policy is that the employee doesn’t really accrue or earn a set amount of leave per pay period or year. Rather, leave is unlimited and may be subject to few, if any, restrictions beyond supervisor approval and a reasonable assurance that assigned duties, projects, clients, and other workload-related details are managed during the worker’s absence. Here, because employees are not accruing a set number of wage-equivalent hours per pay period, no compensation interest vests. After all, you can’t very well pay out “unlimited” vacation at termination."
- fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
  >and a reasonable assurance that assigned duties, projects, clients, and other workload-related details are managed during the worker’s absence. I read that as if you are in a role with no backup or reasonable cover for your duties you can never take vacation. As I often find myself in that position I'd shy away from "unlimited vacation" roles.
- baddox 8y ago
  This is literally the only reason that companies offer unlimited PTO. PTO accrual is a cash flow risk to employers.
ticmasta 8y ago
Unlimited in jurisdictions with legal minimums is set at the minimum in my experience. They usually say "You get unlimited vacation and are expected to take a minimum of X weeks per year". I've never seen a company the doesn't track time off regardless of their policy.

tracker1 8y ago

When a company I used to work at did the same, one of my coworkers started taking a "vacation" every other Friday and Monday. The same guy rarely used vacation time before, but was pretty much unavailable every other weekend after that. I left within a couple months after the change. Management seemed to be more concerned about average number of Jira items closed as opposed to real progress on the project(s) in question.

guitarbill 8y ago
> The same guy rarely used vacation time before, but was pretty much unavailable every other weekend after that. Oh no, somebody setting boundaries and not working weekends? Unacceptable! It's certainly possible there were other issues, but to me this sounds like sour grapes for not having the courage to pull off such a genius move yourself.
- tracker1 8y ago
  I'm not sour at all, I think it was brilliant... also, he was basically taking a 4 day weekend every other week.
throwanem 8y ago
It sounds like he was working a weekend, then taking the two days surrounding the following weekend off, and repeat. Assuming that's correct, what are you complaining about here? That the guy was time-shifting his weekends, or that he was actually making use of the policy? In either case, why is it an issue?
- tracker1 8y ago
  I'm not sure were the perception is coming from.. I think it was brilliant... not a complaint at all. Effectively was taking a 4-day weekend every other week and working 4-day weeks. The unavailable thing came down to being reachable in case of a support issue... I have no gripes about it what so ever.
ghaff 8y ago

drugme 8y ago

Of course there's no such thing as "unlimited PTO" - it's just a gimmick, basically. So don't expect any decisions or statements made by companies offering "unlimited PTO" to be fair - or many any kind of sense, otherwise.

yborg 8y ago

Also worked at a company that eliminated the PTO benefit. That's essentially what "unlimited PTO" means, you are no longer guaranteed that any time off is paid, since it's explicitly at the discretion of your manager, and it no longer accrues in the event you leave or the company folds. This is usually combined with "unified time off" policies in which there is no defined sick time off either. The only exception, really, is time off mandated under FMLA. If I'm negotiating comp with such a company, I would add what would normally be the PTO I would receive at a place which has it as a defined benefit and use that number as what I would need to be offered in order to accept a position there.

reaperducer 8y ago

Companies have been screwing with employees over vacation forever. In the last century I worked for CBS. At the time, CBS had a policy where vacation rolled over from year to year. It was common for people to save up for a few years in order to take off for an entire month or two. When Westinghouse bought CBS, a memo went out that the policy changed to use-it-or-lose it. The memo went out around October, so for the next two months there was a massive crush of people trying to use their accrued vacation before the end of the year. On the plus side, a lot of the young employees and interns had to cover for the veterans, and in doing so got a lot of front-line experience they never would have anywhere else. Then when the vets came back from vacation and quit because they were pissed they'd lost so much banked vacation time, those new employees and interns all moved up in the ranks and ended up running the joint. (A broad generalization company-wide, but certainly a noticeable shift in the unit where I worked.)

coredog64 8y ago
My favorite story in this genre is an employer that would force employees to take vacation in order to make quarterly numbers look better (fewer obligations on the books) in order to juice earnings so that targets could be “met”. Every time they did it, they promised they’d never do it again. And then 18 months later they did it again.