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You're 100% right that people shouldn't have an attitude of "this harmful part of my life will fix itself". Although I don't think just observing that you'll li

by avar 8y ago

You're 100% right that people shouldn't have an attitude of "this harmful part of my life will fix itself". Although I don't think just observing that you'll likely "grow out" of it makes the article dangerous. People also tend to grow out of violent behavior (how many hyper-violent 20 v.s. 80 year olds are there?). That doesn't mean it's not harmful behavior when you're younger, or that it doesn't need to be addressed at that point. But it's just as dangerous to propose that simply because you have issues in your life that some religiously-motivated program like AA is the way to go. We should provide people with help that's scientifically developed and proved to be effective, and AA and its various sister programs are neither of those. They're just "get the drunks to worship god instead" programs. In recent years they've gained the thin veneer of talking about a "higher power" instead of "god", without becoming any more scientific or empirically-supported as a result. If you have a problem with addiction start by talking to your physician, not a church group.

pfisch 8y ago
Are you saying that there are no statistics that back up AA as effective? I am pretty skeptical of a claim like that.
- simple_phrases 8y ago
  Efficacy rates are low, but so is almost every other intervention available. It works for some people. It's also completely free, which you can't say about medical intervention. Around here, detox and rehab facilities have 6 month long waiting lists and cost tens of thousands of dollars.
  - pfisch 8y ago
    Are you saying rehab facilities also don't work compared to a control group? I am skeptical about that too. I'd be surprised if both rehab and AA don't have a statistically significant effect on addiction treatment.
    - simple_phrases 8y ago
      No. People tend to expect that rehab will cure addiction, and become disillusioned with the reality that addiction is a chronic illness. Relapse rates are high in chronic illnesses, like diabetes and hypertension, the latter having a relapse rate of 50%-75% according to the NIH. Addiction is no different, and its relapse rates are between 40%-60%, even with ongoing treatment. Efficacy rates will reflect this harsh (and often very expensive or deadly) truth.
- cc-d 8y ago
  The success rate of AA is somewhere around 5-10%. Perfectly accurate stats are hard to acquire due to the nature of the disease of addiction, and the programs themselves intentionally do not track efficacy rate (after all, a program based on religious ideology instead of actual evidence has hilariously become the defacto prescription for drug addiction in the american legal system. Why ruin a good thing?). You would achieve a similar efficacy rate by giving addicts a sugar pill and telling them it was a miracle drug that cures addiction. Also instead of taking the time to write out multiple comments expressing your doubt as to the efficacy of AA, you could've found the information you needed in a single google search.
  - ux-app 8y ago
    So what's the solution?
thrownaway954 8y ago
Your perception of AA is based on ignorance. AA is not a "get the drunks to worship god instead" program... It is suggested that you find a higher power, but not required. Remember..."Our book is meant to be suggested only, we realise we know only a little." I go to Agnostic meetings that don't involve any prayer or spiritual aspect, just a group of drunks gathered together helping each other to stay sober. So if the whole religious or spiritual aspect of the program leaves a bad taste in your mouth, try finding a secular meeting in your area: https://secularaa.org/tsml_meeting/ https://secularaa.org/tsml_meeting/
- avar 8y ago
  What am I supposedly ignorant about? That AA is a religious sobriety program? The next sentence of the "Our book..." quote you've cited is "God will disclose more to you and to us". So perhaps it's not not doing the work you think it is. In any case, the motivation for my comment was to point out that many of these "xA" programs are inspired by the 12-step "AA" program. That program is not scientific, or even amenable to change as new evidence about the efficacy of sobriety comes in. Rather, it's dogma. Whatever white-washing of AA's mention of "God" over the years as "higher power" doesn't change the fact that it's not science-based. Does that mean it's completely useless? No, but as others have pointed out studies of its effectiveness are rather damning[1]. It just bears pointing out when treatments for addiction are discussed that AA is a dogma-based therapy, because many people suffering from addiction think AA is just what you're supposed to do. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_Alcoholics_Anonymous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_Alcoholics_An...
  - thrownaway954 8y ago
    "That AA is a religious sobriety program" - exactly that. It is a suggested spiritual sobriety program with an emphasis on "suggestive". It's not a religious program what-so-ever. They use the word God to incubus whatever "higher power" a member chooses (or chooses not to) believe in. I'll give you that God was an EXTREMELY POOR choice for the word, but it's what everyone could relate to at the time. In any case, don't let the fact that God is mentioned in the book confuse you, it's already confused most.
QuantumYeti 8y ago
There are secular AA programs. I attend a couple in my area, have found them to be extremely helpful as a support group, and would not label them as a "church group". Physicians aren't a cure-all, because there's no guarantee they've been trained in addiction medicine. After a few doctor visits and them hearing the word "anxiety", you might just leave with a new prescription to Xanax or some other benzo, which could be a virtual death-sentence for someone with a dual-diagnosis.
eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago
I’m agnostic and probably about as liberal as they come. My brother is atheist and getting and staying sober through AA. The “god” can be anything you want it to be, as it is for him. That is not to say that AA is for everyone, but this advice to just “talk to a physician” as if that is the only fix is absurd. Look at how many people are hooked on opioids after “talking to their physician.”
- justtopost 8y ago
  True, but predatory church groups abound. Motivations for helping people with addictions ranges from compassion, to dispassioned dominance and exploitation, with most being somewhere in between (money). This is not to say that they are all bad, but peverse incentives seem more common than most industries, even when the intentions are noble.
  - simple_phrases 8y ago
    Exploitive and dominance-motivated people exist in the medical sphere, as well.
- 0xcde4c3db 8y ago
  I never understood the "god can be anything you want" line. Five of the steps involve accepting "god" as an authority over your life, including "His will for us" and the power to "remove all these defects of character". It reminds me of Henry Ford's infamous "any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black"; i.e. you can have any god you want, as long as it's at least a metaphor for a personal god that deserves authority over your decisions and well-being. Your brother might have no problem with that sense of authority, but plenty of atheists do (e.g. believe that if Yahweh existed, He would be a tyrant undeserving of worship).
  - ZeroFries 8y ago
    You can reduce those to the authority of the laws of physics, if you want. Try defying the authority of gravity, for example. Then, have faith that the laws of physics will work in such a way that your brain will be altered and addiction no longer so strong.
coleifer 8y ago
Almost everyone I know who is successfully clean and happy in 12-step had long ago exhausted all the options: doctor, priest/preacher, psychologist, moving to a new town, "going to the gym", etc. Nobody would ever (myself included) do 12-step because we actually think it would work. And yet it has worked for me when nothing else did.
- electricEmu 8y ago
  AA was a drain on family for years. And yet, the addicts got better when it was removed from their lives. AA as a first step treatment in America is a tragedy. Save us the anecdotes.
  - coleifer 8y ago
    It's my experience, and the comments seem like a relevant place to share it. You're welcome to disagree. You have your own anecdotes (drain on family), which you, too, are sharing. For what it's worth, my wife, son, parents, siblings and co-workers all would say that 12 step has improved our relationships.
    - electricEmu 8y ago
      That’s funny, it took leaving al-anon and AA before the people I knew having problems and their families got better. We all look back at both 12-step programs as very cult like, using religious-style pandering language. The anecdotes are meaningless. AA can work for a small subset of individuals, but It makes no sense for America to push AA as a first line treatment. AA is not a treatment, it’s a self-help group with poor results. Pardon my disdain, but promoting AA over other solutions is frustrating for this formerly silent family in America who are fed up with the 12 step answer.
      - ux-app 8y ago
        Sounds like your family had a bad experience, do you think your personal experience nullifies the positive experience of others?

by avar 8y ago

pfisch 8y ago

Are you saying that there are no statistics that back up AA as effective? I am pretty skeptical of a claim like that.

simple_phrases 8y ago
Efficacy rates are low, but so is almost every other intervention available. It works for some people. It's also completely free, which you can't say about medical intervention. Around here, detox and rehab facilities have 6 month long waiting lists and cost tens of thousands of dollars.
- pfisch 8y ago
  Are you saying rehab facilities also don't work compared to a control group? I am skeptical about that too. I'd be surprised if both rehab and AA don't have a statistically significant effect on addiction treatment.
  - simple_phrases 8y ago
    No. People tend to expect that rehab will cure addiction, and become disillusioned with the reality that addiction is a chronic illness. Relapse rates are high in chronic illnesses, like diabetes and hypertension, the latter having a relapse rate of 50%-75% according to the NIH. Addiction is no different, and its relapse rates are between 40%-60%, even with ongoing treatment. Efficacy rates will reflect this harsh (and often very expensive or deadly) truth.
cc-d 8y ago
The success rate of AA is somewhere around 5-10%. Perfectly accurate stats are hard to acquire due to the nature of the disease of addiction, and the programs themselves intentionally do not track efficacy rate (after all, a program based on religious ideology instead of actual evidence has hilariously become the defacto prescription for drug addiction in the american legal system. Why ruin a good thing?). You would achieve a similar efficacy rate by giving addicts a sugar pill and telling them it was a miracle drug that cures addiction. Also instead of taking the time to write out multiple comments expressing your doubt as to the efficacy of AA, you could've found the information you needed in a single google search.
- ux-app 8y ago
  So what's the solution?

thrownaway954 8y ago

Your perception of AA is based on ignorance. AA is not a "get the drunks to worship god instead" program... It is suggested that you find a higher power, but not required. Remember..."Our book is meant to be suggested only, we realise we know only a little." I go to Agnostic meetings that don't involve any prayer or spiritual aspect, just a group of drunks gathered together helping each other to stay sober. So if the whole religious or spiritual aspect of the program leaves a bad taste in your mouth, try finding a secular meeting in your area: https://secularaa.org/tsml_meeting/ https://secularaa.org/tsml_meeting/

avar 8y ago
What am I supposedly ignorant about? That AA is a religious sobriety program? The next sentence of the "Our book..." quote you've cited is "God will disclose more to you and to us". So perhaps it's not not doing the work you think it is. In any case, the motivation for my comment was to point out that many of these "xA" programs are inspired by the 12-step "AA" program. That program is not scientific, or even amenable to change as new evidence about the efficacy of sobriety comes in. Rather, it's dogma. Whatever white-washing of AA's mention of "God" over the years as "higher power" doesn't change the fact that it's not science-based. Does that mean it's completely useless? No, but as others have pointed out studies of its effectiveness are rather damning[1]. It just bears pointing out when treatments for addiction are discussed that AA is a dogma-based therapy, because many people suffering from addiction think AA is just what you're supposed to do. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_Alcoholics_Anonymous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_Alcoholics_An...
- thrownaway954 8y ago
  "That AA is a religious sobriety program" - exactly that. It is a suggested spiritual sobriety program with an emphasis on "suggestive". It's not a religious program what-so-ever. They use the word God to incubus whatever "higher power" a member chooses (or chooses not to) believe in. I'll give you that God was an EXTREMELY POOR choice for the word, but it's what everyone could relate to at the time. In any case, don't let the fact that God is mentioned in the book confuse you, it's already confused most.

QuantumYeti 8y ago

There are secular AA programs. I attend a couple in my area, have found them to be extremely helpful as a support group, and would not label them as a "church group". Physicians aren't a cure-all, because there's no guarantee they've been trained in addiction medicine. After a few doctor visits and them hearing the word "anxiety", you might just leave with a new prescription to Xanax or some other benzo, which could be a virtual death-sentence for someone with a dual-diagnosis.

eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago

I’m agnostic and probably about as liberal as they come. My brother is atheist and getting and staying sober through AA. The “god” can be anything you want it to be, as it is for him. That is not to say that AA is for everyone, but this advice to just “talk to a physician” as if that is the only fix is absurd. Look at how many people are hooked on opioids after “talking to their physician.”

justtopost 8y ago
True, but predatory church groups abound. Motivations for helping people with addictions ranges from compassion, to dispassioned dominance and exploitation, with most being somewhere in between (money). This is not to say that they are all bad, but peverse incentives seem more common than most industries, even when the intentions are noble.
- simple_phrases 8y ago
  Exploitive and dominance-motivated people exist in the medical sphere, as well.
0xcde4c3db 8y ago
I never understood the "god can be anything you want" line. Five of the steps involve accepting "god" as an authority over your life, including "His will for us" and the power to "remove all these defects of character". It reminds me of Henry Ford's infamous "any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black"; i.e. you can have any god you want, as long as it's at least a metaphor for a personal god that deserves authority over your decisions and well-being. Your brother might have no problem with that sense of authority, but plenty of atheists do (e.g. believe that if Yahweh existed, He would be a tyrant undeserving of worship).
- ZeroFries 8y ago
  You can reduce those to the authority of the laws of physics, if you want. Try defying the authority of gravity, for example. Then, have faith that the laws of physics will work in such a way that your brain will be altered and addiction no longer so strong.

coleifer 8y ago

Almost everyone I know who is successfully clean and happy in 12-step had long ago exhausted all the options: doctor, priest/preacher, psychologist, moving to a new town, "going to the gym", etc. Nobody would ever (myself included) do 12-step because we actually think it would work. And yet it has worked for me when nothing else did.

electricEmu 8y ago
AA was a drain on family for years. And yet, the addicts got better when it was removed from their lives. AA as a first step treatment in America is a tragedy. Save us the anecdotes.
- coleifer 8y ago
  It's my experience, and the comments seem like a relevant place to share it. You're welcome to disagree. You have your own anecdotes (drain on family), which you, too, are sharing. For what it's worth, my wife, son, parents, siblings and co-workers all would say that 12 step has improved our relationships.
  - electricEmu 8y ago
    That’s funny, it took leaving al-anon and AA before the people I knew having problems and their families got better. We all look back at both 12-step programs as very cult like, using religious-style pandering language. The anecdotes are meaningless. AA can work for a small subset of individuals, but It makes no sense for America to push AA as a first line treatment. AA is not a treatment, it’s a self-help group with poor results. Pardon my disdain, but promoting AA over other solutions is frustrating for this formerly silent family in America who are fed up with the 12 step answer.
    - ux-app 8y ago
      Sounds like your family had a bad experience, do you think your personal experience nullifies the positive experience of others?