5 ms·

How Oregon ensnares mentally ill people charged with low-level crimes

45 points by joveian 8y ago

ordu 8y ago
I'm not an american, and some points seem alien for me. Is it really bad to jail mentally ill homeless man? He is homeless, he is mentally ill, he have nowhere to go, he have no warm and soft bed to sleep, he need to eat, and have no ability to find food. He is forced to break a law to steal a bottle of tea to drink. Probably he is stealing his food to eat. The jail imprisonment can solve the most of these problems for him. Moreover he would get medication, which can make his mental life more comfortable. And it is good for a society: he now gets his dinner legally without need to steal. I agree, that $1k per day per patient for that is a way too much, and I see this as the problem. But while reading this article I've formed a suspicion that article points to moral unacceptability of imprisonment of mentally ill. It is unacceptable because it is amoral and to hell with all the attempts to reason rationally. Is my suspicion is a right one?
- behringer 8y ago
  US prisons are more like torture centers than a traditional rehabilitative institution. If the prisoner doesn't behave just right, he could end up locked in a small room 23 hours a day. He could end up assaulted and abused. He could end up being taken advantage of. In the US we have institutions for the mentally ill and he would be better off there, but it's becoming increasingly more only for the wealthy to use.
  - creato 8y ago
    > US prisons are more like torture centers than a traditional rehabilitative institution. If the prisoner doesn't behave just right, he could end up locked in a small room 23 hours a day. He could end up assaulted and abused. He could end up being taken advantage of. Is this really true? This seems to be a popular assessment but every now and then I see first-hand accounts of people who went to jail/prison and my main takeaway from them is that it's simply boring and nothing really happens, and that the average joe is just going to go in, be bored, and get out. There are definitely big stories/issues that come out every so often but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.
    - crimethought 8y ago
      LA county jails are dangerous especially if you aren’t white. Depending on the unit, your pod will be ran by either a Hispanic or Black gang member who runs the “program”. I was arrested on a minor misdemeanor and thanks to the magic of corruption, got thrown in jail for 35-days when my plea deal was 0. I was in jail with convicted murderers, people on murder trial etc. I was handcuffed to a man that was savgely beaten by gang members for a minor offense involving a newspaper. The process to goto court was insane — including dry runs where you basically sit in a small cold holding room with up to 50 people from 6am to 5pm but are never called to court. In that room, inmates had been murdered and yes they’re cameras now but people cover them up for a fight. This was my 1st arrest, for a dubious crime. I even called the police for help, was unjustly arrested than put in jail with violent criminals and violent deputies whose behavior has improved since the FBI installed video cameras.
      - bilbo0s 8y ago
        >I was arrested on a minor misdemeanor and ... got thrown in jail for 35-days when my plea deal was 0... And... >This was my 1st arrest... Wait? What? Are you a black guy or something? Because if not, I'm not understanding how that could have happened to you?
        chrisseaton 8y ago
        Not an American, so can't tell if you think 35-days custody is a lot or a little for a first offence?
        bilbo0s 8y ago
        For a 1st offense, minor misdemeanor, 35 days is a LOT. So either the misdemeanor was not minor, or this guy has something else going on? Like maybe he's black? Maybe he's dating the arresting cop's ex? But if this kind of thing were the case, you'd normally see more charges. (And no plea bargains.) I'd say maybe it was a political thing, but it's not an election year. Who knows? But 35 days is way outside the mean. The average person would not get that much for a 1st offense on a minor misdemeanor.
  - UnpossibleJim 8y ago
    Inpatient mental health facilities are mainly for the wealthy since deregulation in the Reagan era. That was almost 40 years ago. At this point, you have to be a danger to yourself, at which point they admit you to a hospital for treatment, or a danger to others, at which point they put you in jail. Both of these facilities have become defacto mental health facilities for the poor and lower middle class, I'm sorry to say. This isn't a "becoming" issue, this issue already happened.
  - cronix 8y ago
    > US prisons are more like torture centers Torture: > the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/torture https://www.dictionary.com/browse/torture Please stop with the hyperbole and misapplication of defined words. You degrade the actual meaning of the word when used improperly in this context. Also, you state that it's a voluntary action, entirely controlled by the prisoners behavior. > If the prisoner doesn't behave just right So - behave if in prison. Seems reasonable. Contrast what you claim is torture, with actual torture that does go on: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/23/lawyer-torture-china-secret-jails-xie-yang https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/23/lawyer-torture... I'd take your version of torture any day of the week, because it's actually pretty tame compared to real torture.
    - fzeroracer 8y ago
      Not only is this classic whataboutism, but it ignores the reality of the US prison system being an absolute horrific nightmare for many people. We still use solitary confinement here in the US which is absolutely considered torture in many circumstances. It's far from hyperbole and far from voluntary, especially when you start considering the needs of the mentally ill with regards to prisons and how they're supposed to behave.
      - j16sdiz 8y ago
        solitary confinement is quite common in Asia. And no, we don't consider that as torture.
        phren0logy 8y ago
        Given the psychological effects of extended, externally-imposed isolation, it should be considered a form of mistreatment everywhere.
        behringer 8y ago
        Many countries and people consider it torture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#Torture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#Torture And solitary confinement is one small part in the overall torture scheme perpetrated by US prisons. It's not hyperbole, it's the facts.
- droithomme 8y ago
  > Is it really bad to jail mentally ill homeless man? One point is that should we forcibly imprison someone who has not committed any real crime? Or even put them in a mental hospital? In the US at least jails and mental hospitals have a long history of twisted sadistic abuse by extremely well meaning individuals who were convinced they knew what was best for these people. During the Bush II administration he appointed a Homeless Tsar (who didn't like Bush) who advocated for a program where the hopelessly homeless were put into a decent 1 bedroom apartment, signed up for health care, and given a small monthly stipend. This cost less than these men were costing society showing up at the emergency rooms with frostbite and side effects of diabetes, etc. One controversial aspect was that there were no restrictions on what they spent the money on. They could for example purchase vodka instead of food if that was their desire. Unlike with most homeless shelters, they were left alone and allowed to live their lives as they chose if they wanted that. This program was very successful and greatly decreased the cost of managing long term homeless persons.
phren0logy 8y ago
I’m a psychiatrist, and I worked at Oregon State Hospital. This article, like most articles about mental health, raises some important issues while somehow managing to get lots of things wrong. First off, the remodeling of Oregon State Hosital resulted in a net decrease in beds. Another recent project to consolidate most of the inpatient psychiatric beds in the center of Portland also resulted in fewer beds, but let local hospitals divest themselves of inpatient units they never wanted because they lose money. So, there are not many places for people with active and severe mental illness to get inpatient treatment (which is, of course, not the only way to get treatment, but can be a major one for people who are incapable of recognizing they are ill). Having worked in other states, it is my opinion that the crux of the problem is that there are too few avenues to get people help when they need it but don’t recognize the need. Because it’s so increadibly hard to get people involuntarily hospitalized (which I recognize can be abused), we end up with them being arrested instead. As noted above, involuntary hospitalization can be abused, but when so many mentally ill people go untreated until they are arrested it’s perhaps time to reconsider if things are working as intended. Then, once someone is arrested, evaluated as needing to be restored to competency for trial, and finally gets to the hospital, many of them decline medication. For most of them, it’s implausible that their condition will improve without it. So they have arrived at a point in their life where they don’t know they are ill, have done something to get themselves arrested that’s often related to their symptoms, and continue to decline treatment. I see it as an unintended consequence of such strong protections on individual rights. Of course those individual rights should be protected, but I would respectfully suggest it’s time to reconsider where the lines are drawn. This movement of the mentally ill from asylums (where they were often mistreated) to jails and prisons has been dubbed “trans-institutionalization” if you want to read more about it.
- ColanR 8y ago
  It is a Big Deal to deny someone their autonomy, no matter which way you slice it. I think we agree on that. But, respectfully, I think that because it is such a big deal, imprisonment is the proper escalation. It's necessary to maintain a sense of proportion, and we need to avoid - at all costs (and I think that is where we diverge) - the decrement of the right to autonomy. If we make it less of a Big Deal to revoke that right, 'merely' hospitalizing them, we lose our respect for that autonomy.
bellerose 8y ago
The majority of people running jails & mental hospitals in the States are people who enjoy power over the unfortunate. The jobs aren’t attractive, they don’t pay well and thus an unattractive crowd you will find. Humanity isn’t pleasant just because we desire it. People are capable of never wanting a person to succeed and will do deliberate actions to make it be a reality. That’s the unpleasant truth of the legal & mental system in the United States.

45 points by joveian 8y ago

ordu 8y ago

I'm not an american, and some points seem alien for me. Is it really bad to jail mentally ill homeless man? He is homeless, he is mentally ill, he have nowhere to go, he have no warm and soft bed to sleep, he need to eat, and have no ability to find food. He is forced to break a law to steal a bottle of tea to drink. Probably he is stealing his food to eat. The jail imprisonment can solve the most of these problems for him. Moreover he would get medication, which can make his mental life more comfortable. And it is good for a society: he now gets his dinner legally without need to steal. I agree, that $1k per day per patient for that is a way too much, and I see this as the problem. But while reading this article I've formed a suspicion that article points to moral unacceptability of imprisonment of mentally ill. It is unacceptable because it is amoral and to hell with all the attempts to reason rationally. Is my suspicion is a right one?

behringer 8y ago
US prisons are more like torture centers than a traditional rehabilitative institution. If the prisoner doesn't behave just right, he could end up locked in a small room 23 hours a day. He could end up assaulted and abused. He could end up being taken advantage of. In the US we have institutions for the mentally ill and he would be better off there, but it's becoming increasingly more only for the wealthy to use.
- creato 8y ago
  > US prisons are more like torture centers than a traditional rehabilitative institution. If the prisoner doesn't behave just right, he could end up locked in a small room 23 hours a day. He could end up assaulted and abused. He could end up being taken advantage of. Is this really true? This seems to be a popular assessment but every now and then I see first-hand accounts of people who went to jail/prison and my main takeaway from them is that it's simply boring and nothing really happens, and that the average joe is just going to go in, be bored, and get out. There are definitely big stories/issues that come out every so often but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.
  - crimethought 8y ago
    LA county jails are dangerous especially if you aren’t white. Depending on the unit, your pod will be ran by either a Hispanic or Black gang member who runs the “program”. I was arrested on a minor misdemeanor and thanks to the magic of corruption, got thrown in jail for 35-days when my plea deal was 0. I was in jail with convicted murderers, people on murder trial etc. I was handcuffed to a man that was savgely beaten by gang members for a minor offense involving a newspaper. The process to goto court was insane — including dry runs where you basically sit in a small cold holding room with up to 50 people from 6am to 5pm but are never called to court. In that room, inmates had been murdered and yes they’re cameras now but people cover them up for a fight. This was my 1st arrest, for a dubious crime. I even called the police for help, was unjustly arrested than put in jail with violent criminals and violent deputies whose behavior has improved since the FBI installed video cameras.
    - bilbo0s 8y ago
      >I was arrested on a minor misdemeanor and ... got thrown in jail for 35-days when my plea deal was 0... And... >This was my 1st arrest... Wait? What? Are you a black guy or something? Because if not, I'm not understanding how that could have happened to you?
      - chrisseaton 8y ago
        Not an American, so can't tell if you think 35-days custody is a lot or a little for a first offence?
        bilbo0s 8y ago
        For a 1st offense, minor misdemeanor, 35 days is a LOT. So either the misdemeanor was not minor, or this guy has something else going on? Like maybe he's black? Maybe he's dating the arresting cop's ex? But if this kind of thing were the case, you'd normally see more charges. (And no plea bargains.) I'd say maybe it was a political thing, but it's not an election year. Who knows? But 35 days is way outside the mean. The average person would not get that much for a 1st offense on a minor misdemeanor.
- UnpossibleJim 8y ago
  Inpatient mental health facilities are mainly for the wealthy since deregulation in the Reagan era. That was almost 40 years ago. At this point, you have to be a danger to yourself, at which point they admit you to a hospital for treatment, or a danger to others, at which point they put you in jail. Both of these facilities have become defacto mental health facilities for the poor and lower middle class, I'm sorry to say. This isn't a "becoming" issue, this issue already happened.
- cronix 8y ago
  > US prisons are more like torture centers Torture: > the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/torture https://www.dictionary.com/browse/torture Please stop with the hyperbole and misapplication of defined words. You degrade the actual meaning of the word when used improperly in this context. Also, you state that it's a voluntary action, entirely controlled by the prisoners behavior. > If the prisoner doesn't behave just right So - behave if in prison. Seems reasonable. Contrast what you claim is torture, with actual torture that does go on: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/23/lawyer-torture-china-secret-jails-xie-yang https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/23/lawyer-torture... I'd take your version of torture any day of the week, because it's actually pretty tame compared to real torture.
  - fzeroracer 8y ago
    Not only is this classic whataboutism, but it ignores the reality of the US prison system being an absolute horrific nightmare for many people. We still use solitary confinement here in the US which is absolutely considered torture in many circumstances. It's far from hyperbole and far from voluntary, especially when you start considering the needs of the mentally ill with regards to prisons and how they're supposed to behave.
    - j16sdiz 8y ago
      solitary confinement is quite common in Asia. And no, we don't consider that as torture.
      - phren0logy 8y ago
        Given the psychological effects of extended, externally-imposed isolation, it should be considered a form of mistreatment everywhere.
      - behringer 8y ago
        Many countries and people consider it torture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#Torture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#Torture And solitary confinement is one small part in the overall torture scheme perpetrated by US prisons. It's not hyperbole, it's the facts.
droithomme 8y ago
> Is it really bad to jail mentally ill homeless man? One point is that should we forcibly imprison someone who has not committed any real crime? Or even put them in a mental hospital? In the US at least jails and mental hospitals have a long history of twisted sadistic abuse by extremely well meaning individuals who were convinced they knew what was best for these people. During the Bush II administration he appointed a Homeless Tsar (who didn't like Bush) who advocated for a program where the hopelessly homeless were put into a decent 1 bedroom apartment, signed up for health care, and given a small monthly stipend. This cost less than these men were costing society showing up at the emergency rooms with frostbite and side effects of diabetes, etc. One controversial aspect was that there were no restrictions on what they spent the money on. They could for example purchase vodka instead of food if that was their desire. Unlike with most homeless shelters, they were left alone and allowed to live their lives as they chose if they wanted that. This program was very successful and greatly decreased the cost of managing long term homeless persons.

phren0logy 8y ago

I’m a psychiatrist, and I worked at Oregon State Hospital. This article, like most articles about mental health, raises some important issues while somehow managing to get lots of things wrong. First off, the remodeling of Oregon State Hosital resulted in a net decrease in beds. Another recent project to consolidate most of the inpatient psychiatric beds in the center of Portland also resulted in fewer beds, but let local hospitals divest themselves of inpatient units they never wanted because they lose money. So, there are not many places for people with active and severe mental illness to get inpatient treatment (which is, of course, not the only way to get treatment, but can be a major one for people who are incapable of recognizing they are ill). Having worked in other states, it is my opinion that the crux of the problem is that there are too few avenues to get people help when they need it but don’t recognize the need. Because it’s so increadibly hard to get people involuntarily hospitalized (which I recognize can be abused), we end up with them being arrested instead. As noted above, involuntary hospitalization can be abused, but when so many mentally ill people go untreated until they are arrested it’s perhaps time to reconsider if things are working as intended. Then, once someone is arrested, evaluated as needing to be restored to competency for trial, and finally gets to the hospital, many of them decline medication. For most of them, it’s implausible that their condition will improve without it. So they have arrived at a point in their life where they don’t know they are ill, have done something to get themselves arrested that’s often related to their symptoms, and continue to decline treatment. I see it as an unintended consequence of such strong protections on individual rights. Of course those individual rights should be protected, but I would respectfully suggest it’s time to reconsider where the lines are drawn. This movement of the mentally ill from asylums (where they were often mistreated) to jails and prisons has been dubbed “trans-institutionalization” if you want to read more about it.

ColanR 8y ago
It is a Big Deal to deny someone their autonomy, no matter which way you slice it. I think we agree on that. But, respectfully, I think that because it is such a big deal, imprisonment is the proper escalation. It's necessary to maintain a sense of proportion, and we need to avoid - at all costs (and I think that is where we diverge) - the decrement of the right to autonomy. If we make it less of a Big Deal to revoke that right, 'merely' hospitalizing them, we lose our respect for that autonomy.

bellerose 8y ago

The majority of people running jails & mental hospitals in the States are people who enjoy power over the unfortunate. The jobs aren’t attractive, they don’t pay well and thus an unattractive crowd you will find. Humanity isn’t pleasant just because we desire it. People are capable of never wanting a person to succeed and will do deliberate actions to make it be a reality. That’s the unpleasant truth of the legal & mental system in the United States.