6 ms·

America Pushes Allies to Fight Huawei in New Arms Race with China

35 points by gtt 8y ago

altmind 8y ago
Similar articles from 2 month ago with the same title: "US asks allies to drop Huawei" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18513249 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18513249 British Telecom bars Huawei's 5G kit from core of network https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18616459 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18616459 Or this article from 5 months ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17824757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17824757 Or this article from 1 year ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16378846 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16378846 All these articles cover the same story, while not giving any "smoking gun" evidence of huawei wrongdoing, slowly destroying their public image.
- mc32 8y ago
  Given the premise that: >In an age when the most powerful weapons, short of nuclear arms, are cyber-controlled, whichever country dominates 5G will gain an economic, intelligence and military edge for much of this century. It's no surprise NATO allies would not want to cede their comms infrastructure to a power which continually has engaged in cyberespionage/warfare against industrial and geopolitical rivals. I mean, if they go with Huawei for HW they might as well go with Kaspersky for Cybersecurity and cede a 1-2.
  - balls187 8y ago
    > It's no surprise NATO allies would not want to cede their comms infrastructure to a power which continually has engaged in cyberespionage/warfare against industrial and geopolitical rivals. It's long been rumored that the US does this in spades (and is quite ahead of everyone else in doing so). It's less about ceding power, and instead ceding power to the devil you know vs the devil you don't.
- z2 8y ago
  This article, if true, gives the best context so far, in suggesting this was indeed highly coordinated: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18676706 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18676706
- DeonPenny 8y ago
  The problem isn't they have with 5G. It's that Huawei has been caught in places like Poland spying, the fact that with OTA they could, the fact that in Iran they've ignored US laws, and China has a rule that could force them anytime unlike places with Rule of law.
  - altmind 8y ago
    worth noting it was huawei employee got investigated for spying, not huawei itself.
    - gruez 8y ago
      >not huawei itself. But how would you prove that huawei (the corporation) was spying? I'd imagine that you would need proof that it was officially sanctioned within the organization, at multiple levels. Since spying is illegal, you'd expect that if they were spying, that they'd be doing it in a way that generates plausible deniability for the higher ups. So it's not surprising at all that all the criminal charges so far are for employees acting on their own accord (or at least appear to be).
      - altmind 8y ago
        now you have to wait for the whole judical process to conclude. so far the employee was arrested. I have not heard he was indicted so far. And obviously he was not found guilty yet. Should we apply some different criteria of guilt based on origin? edit(charged->found gulty)
  - profalseidol 8y ago
    > the fact that in Iran they've ignored US laws Why would they? It's Iran. Not anymore the song "We're all living in Amerika" is true.
    - DeonPenny 8y ago
      Because they need US technology and in order to get it they agree to some things I'd guess
- chibg10 8y ago
  As far as I understand it, there is no smoking gun. Ignoring some blatant IP theft some years ago, I actually think modern Huawei has been pretty free of wrongdoing in recent years. And, yet, I still agree with the US position. I think a lot of people misunderstand the relationship between Chinese businesses and the the Chinese government. There is essentially zero legal recourse to resist government requests in China. None. Even assuming Huawei has no history of wrongdoing, any data running through their telecon equipment is only secure so far as the CCP chooses to allow it. And the CCP is historically brutally aggressive with whatever they think they can get away with as far as foreign policy goes. It really sort of sucks for Huawei if they truly haven't been irresponsible actors, but that doesn't change the realities of the situation.
casual_slacker 8y ago
It concerns me how 5G has a huge PR push behind it, while academic papers seem to be in a state of confusion and uncertainty, particularly around the 50GHz line (most 5G standards, including the current EU standard, is only up to 27GHz, but the US allows up to 86GHz) The most reputable papers I'm aware of are > Frequency and Irradiation Time-dependant Antiproliferative Effect of Low-power Millimeter Waves on RPMI 7932 Human Melanoma Cell Line (2005) > Eﬀects of Millimeter Wave Exposure on Termite Behavior (2011)
- d2161 8y ago
  How quick that the US forgot the NSA spied on everyone -.-
  - elp 8y ago
    Lets also not forget that an amazingly large amount of the time its Cisco that replaces the Huawei kit. When the biggest intelligence agency on the planet, the one who got caught bugging its allies, starts acting as as salesman for a very specific brand of networking equipment you really do have to ask why.
    - zxcmx 8y ago
      Given premises: a) state with a hand in supplying gear will have a natural "home advantage" spying AND b)"everyone spies / does sigint" and c) it is basically impossible to detect a well-engineered backdoor then: 1) I believe we don't have to be cynical about the U.S. pushing say, Cisco, it makes perfect sense; I don't think that agenda is actually hidden. 2) It makes perfect sense to choose gear for critical infra based on which supplier states you believe will do you the least harm.
Proven 8y ago
Selling points: 1) Extent of American spying on own allies is known. Huawei’s isn’t (it may not exist) 2) Protectionism is “good” for all politicians involved and is easy to sell these days If I had a chance to choose I would pay premium prices for telco services in order to avoid Huawei, but it should be up each customer to decide for themselves.
throwaway98121 8y ago
Is there a legitimate security concern or is it that Huawei is a potential threat to companies here in the US who sell similar or same products for far more? Call me pessimistic, but anytime a government tells me something is a national security threat, my b.s. detector starts to go off. Not to go completely on a tangent, but the goals of the US republic are to protect its elite. Everything else is just a distraction, IMO.
- thetechlead 8y ago
  Simply put, Huawei's products have better quality and companies in the US can't compete with it. They are already #1 in telecommunication equipment and for consumer electronics like smart phones, they are killing other competitors in markets like China and Europe. Their phones were just like another cheap knock-off a few year back and what impressed me most is how they innovated through hard core R&D in the last 3 years. I'm now typing on a Huawei Matebook 13 and carrying a Huawei Mate 10 phone. Those things have amazing quality and it's a real pity customers can't have them in the States.
  - msravi 8y ago
    Does it matter that Huawei has reached that position by possibly stealing code? https://blogs.cisco.com/news/huawei-and-ciscos-source-code-correcting-the-record https://blogs.cisco.com/news/huawei-and-ciscos-source-code-c...
    - thetechlead 8y ago
      to be honest I think it's all bullshit, just like how oracles sued google for fucking 9-line copyright infringement, when the first jury trail came out i was working at google. or the lawsuit Qualcomm 'won' against apple in china. imo copyright law is hurting competition and innovation in the long term
  - bobx11 8y ago
    This is not my experience. I have several lte devices from them and they are very unreliable. Their only advantage is price (for the time being).

35 points by gtt 8y ago

Similar articles from 2 month ago with the same title: "US asks allies to drop Huawei" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18513249 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18513249 British Telecom bars Huawei's 5G kit from core of network https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18616459 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18616459 Or this article from 5 months ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17824757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17824757 Or this article from 1 year ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16378846 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16378846 All these articles cover the same story, while not giving any "smoking gun" evidence of huawei wrongdoing, slowly destroying their public image.

mc32 8y ago
Given the premise that: >In an age when the most powerful weapons, short of nuclear arms, are cyber-controlled, whichever country dominates 5G will gain an economic, intelligence and military edge for much of this century. It's no surprise NATO allies would not want to cede their comms infrastructure to a power which continually has engaged in cyberespionage/warfare against industrial and geopolitical rivals. I mean, if they go with Huawei for HW they might as well go with Kaspersky for Cybersecurity and cede a 1-2.
- balls187 8y ago
  > It's no surprise NATO allies would not want to cede their comms infrastructure to a power which continually has engaged in cyberespionage/warfare against industrial and geopolitical rivals. It's long been rumored that the US does this in spades (and is quite ahead of everyone else in doing so). It's less about ceding power, and instead ceding power to the devil you know vs the devil you don't.
z2 8y ago
This article, if true, gives the best context so far, in suggesting this was indeed highly coordinated: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18676706 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18676706
DeonPenny 8y ago
The problem isn't they have with 5G. It's that Huawei has been caught in places like Poland spying, the fact that with OTA they could, the fact that in Iran they've ignored US laws, and China has a rule that could force them anytime unlike places with Rule of law.
- altmind 8y ago
  worth noting it was huawei employee got investigated for spying, not huawei itself.
  - gruez 8y ago
    >not huawei itself. But how would you prove that huawei (the corporation) was spying? I'd imagine that you would need proof that it was officially sanctioned within the organization, at multiple levels. Since spying is illegal, you'd expect that if they were spying, that they'd be doing it in a way that generates plausible deniability for the higher ups. So it's not surprising at all that all the criminal charges so far are for employees acting on their own accord (or at least appear to be).
    - altmind 8y ago
      now you have to wait for the whole judical process to conclude. so far the employee was arrested. I have not heard he was indicted so far. And obviously he was not found guilty yet. Should we apply some different criteria of guilt based on origin? edit(charged->found gulty)
- profalseidol 8y ago
  > the fact that in Iran they've ignored US laws Why would they? It's Iran. Not anymore the song "We're all living in Amerika" is true.
  - DeonPenny 8y ago
    Because they need US technology and in order to get it they agree to some things I'd guess
chibg10 8y ago
As far as I understand it, there is no smoking gun. Ignoring some blatant IP theft some years ago, I actually think modern Huawei has been pretty free of wrongdoing in recent years. And, yet, I still agree with the US position. I think a lot of people misunderstand the relationship between Chinese businesses and the the Chinese government. There is essentially zero legal recourse to resist government requests in China. None. Even assuming Huawei has no history of wrongdoing, any data running through their telecon equipment is only secure so far as the CCP chooses to allow it. And the CCP is historically brutally aggressive with whatever they think they can get away with as far as foreign policy goes. It really sort of sucks for Huawei if they truly haven't been irresponsible actors, but that doesn't change the realities of the situation.

casual_slacker 8y ago

It concerns me how 5G has a huge PR push behind it, while academic papers seem to be in a state of confusion and uncertainty, particularly around the 50GHz line (most 5G standards, including the current EU standard, is only up to 27GHz, but the US allows up to 86GHz) The most reputable papers I'm aware of are > Frequency and Irradiation Time-dependant Antiproliferative Effect of Low-power Millimeter Waves on RPMI 7932 Human Melanoma Cell Line (2005) > Eﬀects of Millimeter Wave Exposure on Termite Behavior (2011)

d2161 8y ago
How quick that the US forgot the NSA spied on everyone -.-
- elp 8y ago
  Lets also not forget that an amazingly large amount of the time its Cisco that replaces the Huawei kit. When the biggest intelligence agency on the planet, the one who got caught bugging its allies, starts acting as as salesman for a very specific brand of networking equipment you really do have to ask why.
  - zxcmx 8y ago
    Given premises: a) state with a hand in supplying gear will have a natural "home advantage" spying AND b)"everyone spies / does sigint" and c) it is basically impossible to detect a well-engineered backdoor then: 1) I believe we don't have to be cynical about the U.S. pushing say, Cisco, it makes perfect sense; I don't think that agenda is actually hidden. 2) It makes perfect sense to choose gear for critical infra based on which supplier states you believe will do you the least harm.

Proven 8y ago

Selling points: 1) Extent of American spying on own allies is known. Huawei’s isn’t (it may not exist) 2) Protectionism is “good” for all politicians involved and is easy to sell these days If I had a chance to choose I would pay premium prices for telco services in order to avoid Huawei, but it should be up each customer to decide for themselves.

throwaway98121 8y ago

Is there a legitimate security concern or is it that Huawei is a potential threat to companies here in the US who sell similar or same products for far more? Call me pessimistic, but anytime a government tells me something is a national security threat, my b.s. detector starts to go off. Not to go completely on a tangent, but the goals of the US republic are to protect its elite. Everything else is just a distraction, IMO.

thetechlead 8y ago
Simply put, Huawei's products have better quality and companies in the US can't compete with it. They are already #1 in telecommunication equipment and for consumer electronics like smart phones, they are killing other competitors in markets like China and Europe. Their phones were just like another cheap knock-off a few year back and what impressed me most is how they innovated through hard core R&D in the last 3 years. I'm now typing on a Huawei Matebook 13 and carrying a Huawei Mate 10 phone. Those things have amazing quality and it's a real pity customers can't have them in the States.
- msravi 8y ago
  Does it matter that Huawei has reached that position by possibly stealing code? https://blogs.cisco.com/news/huawei-and-ciscos-source-code-correcting-the-record https://blogs.cisco.com/news/huawei-and-ciscos-source-code-c...
  - thetechlead 8y ago
    to be honest I think it's all bullshit, just like how oracles sued google for fucking 9-line copyright infringement, when the first jury trail came out i was working at google. or the lawsuit Qualcomm 'won' against apple in china. imo copyright law is hurting competition and innovation in the long term
- bobx11 8y ago
  This is not my experience. I have several lte devices from them and they are very unreliable. Their only advantage is price (for the time being).