10 ms·

Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014)

168 points by dedalus 8y ago

FatDrunknStupid 8y ago
Yeah! 51 and I'm still growing! Rock on.
jayalpha 8y ago
Could be a quote from Pele Stanton https://peele.net https://peele.net
Illli1l1iIli1I 8y ago
This headline (and note article is from 2014) is... not ideal. I think I take the most issue with "simply" -- as if recovering from any addiction is simple in any way. First off, I am 100% sure some people do "simply" grow out of their addiction. But what does that mean? What life changes happened during that period of growth that caused addiction to be a more manageable personal issue? For me, most recently at least, it was when I simply could not find a vein anymore. I had always had poor vein access and after close to 5 years of IV'ing black tar heroin, I had more abscesses than I had available veins. Muscling tar is not pleasant, often leads to an abscesses at the injection site, and has poor bioavailability, but if you are sick and have spent 20 minutes poking yourself at least 20 times (hopefully going through 2-3 syringes in the process as well, and having to deal with backloading your dose), the option becomes more appealing. All of this poking around looking for a flash leads to abscesses as well. With a lifetime of poor vein access, I was doing all the things they did to me in the hospital when I needed an IV: heated blankets, hydration, using alcohol swabs, tourniquets, at least attempting to rotate injection sites, and so on. When I discovered my hands and feet had slightly easier access, I was elated, but that only lasted a couple years, and it really, really, really hurts to miss in your hands and feet. Is that what they mean by "simply growing out of it"? If so, I feel kind of insulted. Eventually, after simply not being able to get high via IV anymore unless I got lucky, I did one last big detox (probably at least my 20th, including 2 in-patient ones), went back to my suboxone doctor, and have been stable on a low-ish dose of the sublingual suboxone for several years now. In my recovery I have been to hundreds of NA/AA meetings and volunteered with harm reduction groups and this concept of "I simply grew out of it" is not a common theme. What is much more common are things like 1) I couldn't stand sleeping outside anymore, 2) I got pregnant, 3) I ran out of vein access, 4) I had a real opportunity to stop using and took it (like rehab or strong social support or job support), 5) I was sick and tired of feeling sick and tired, and so on. Just to be sure, I am not saying "simply growing out of addiction" via "natural recovery" -- as the article discusses -- is not a thing. It's just not enough of a thing to warrant much attention on. A sincere congrats to the people who grow out of it (and, like I said, I'd like to hear more about what that growth process looked like), now let's help the millions of others who haven't.
- fromthestart 8y ago
  I appreciate your anecdote. I have no experience with heroin, but I imagine softer drugs with relatively mild or non existent withdrawal symptoms carry the kind of addiction kind you can grow out of. Say, pot, or various amphetamines.
  - throwaway8879 8y ago
    It's so difficult to answer this as everyone's experience will be different. I do know that there were certain periods of my life where I didn't smoke pot because I was just very active with something or the other and did not want to be lazy. But I was probably using an upper during that time to "be productive". There's also got to be some kind of chemical/medical aspect to how a certain substance affects you individually, apart from how it affects everyone else. I was more of a cafeteria drug user and got bored really quickly and the only objective was to be high(or low), not necessarily an obsession with one kind of drug. For instance, heroin withdrawals were never stereotypical for me. I'd always thought of it as a high wearing off, and would fix it with any other drug that was available, it didn't strictly have to be heroin.
- throwaway8879 8y ago
  I agree with you. I think the "I simply grew out of it" is a realization that comes when I think about it after a couple years clean. It's obviously not that simple, and there were many other factors involved. It's also the easiest answer when I ask myself why I'm clean, rather than the hundreds of other reasons I would actually have to list. So I think it might just be a lazy answer for most people who are clean. I know it is for me. Good on you for staying clean, friend.
- TheGrassyKnoll 8y ago
  20 detoxes ? Holy crap, I salute your persistence. I was never a user, but 'rented' rooms (ok, I let em crash on my couch/stay at my house etc.,...OK, I was a fucking enabler, whatever) to several recovering (and non-recovering) H/meth/crack addicts. They all had legal and family problems that just buried them in never ending toil inside the system. I eventually picked up a case, and had to attend 20 something NA meetings myself. One of the most shocking things I remember was this old guy who had 20 years clean and then he relapsed. Wow. I just feel for these people that've fallen into this shit. I wish I could tell em something that would help, but I don't know...it's a terrible fork in the road.
throwaway8879 8y ago
Can't read the article for some reason. In any case, I somewhat agree with the title. Obviously it isn't going to be the case for every addict. Using/abusing just seems off-putting after a while, and is a major turn-off. I'm not sure how much this has to do with boredom, or a sense of "I'm clean now, addicts are losers, I'm not a loser any longer". In my case, it was just a massive waste of a decade for little to no gain other than some momentary feelings of almost-euphoria. It's just so superficial and a kind of escapism, at least was for me. Anyway, addiction is a lot more complex for generalizations, obviously. I met an older gentleman in rehab who was there for the 50-something time. That kind of put things in perspective for me.
Animats 8y ago
I didn't think it was "widely denied". I thought this was well known. There is a notable exception - smoking.
- throwaway8879 8y ago
  In my personal experience, cigarettes were far more difficult for me to quit than opiates/meth/etc or even alcohol. They are very sneaky that way.
  - Nasrudith 8y ago
    Of course have you ever tried to get an alcohol or meth break at work? You get fired. (Granted if legitimate medical amphetamines or opiates they let you take the pill.) In all seriousness smoking has more "habit/ritual" components to it given oral fixation - in addition to the chemical aspect.
dang 8y ago
Discussed at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8396375 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8396375
warent 8y ago
It's an interesting hypothesis but they lost me at the part about ADHD. I abused substances when I was younger until eventually I learned healthy, constructive coping mechanisms and now I've been happily sober for years. That's an example of maturity helping someone out of addiction. Contrast that will ADD/ADHD. I'm not convinced it has anything to do with maturity or a lack thereof. Sure, mindfulness meditation helps quite a bit. But I think you can be mature, self sufficient, polite, etc, and yet still have ADHD, or immature, etc. and have ADHD. Not to say I'm a shining beacon of perfection with no room for self improvement, but the point is there's little to no correlation there.
- danielvinson 8y ago
  I think the correlation they were getting at is - both are mental health conditions and both have a high rate of recovery during patients' early 20s. While I agree with you that the correlation here doesn't have any direct relation to addiction based on the evidence provided (a study connecting ADD/ADHD to addiction would be VERY interesting), I think that the author included it to show that not all mental health conditions have a low recovery rate.
- kennethh 8y ago
  Children born at the end of the year are more likely to receive ADHD medication or an ADHD diagnosis than children born early in the year. This is according to a new study from the Norwegian Institute of Public Health. The researchers have examined ADHD diagnoses and ADHD medication use among 510,000 Norwegian children aged 6-14 years (born in the period 1998-2006). https://chadd.org/adhd-in-the-news/most-adhd-medicine-used-by-december-born-children/ https://chadd.org/adhd-in-the-news/most-adhd-medicine-used-b... So many of the ADHD children are basically immature compared to the rest of the class, no wonder since the difference between the oldest and youngest are almost a year.
- afiori 8y ago
  > Contrast that will ADD/ADHD. I'm not convinced it has anything to do with maturity or a lack thereof. Sure, mindfulness meditation helps quite a bit. But I think you can be mature, self sufficient, polite, etc, and yet still have ADHD, or immature, etc. and have ADHD. There is a very good video about 30 essential things parents should know about ADHD https://youtu.be/YSfCdBBqNXY https://youtu.be/YSfCdBBqNXY One of them is that when unmedicated on average a person with ADHD has the maturity of someone 2/3 of its age. Its is just an average, but is relevant to think how different a 14 years old and a 21 years old are (or 20 and 30).
fromthestart 8y ago
Makes sense. Drugs get boring. The euphoria fades. Then it becomes normal. And if chronic use continues, one eventually finds oneself, quite suddenly, in the grips of dependency. But then the appeal finally fades, too, when it becomes clear that the highs of yore that you still chase are gone forever - and suddenly it is worthwhile to brave the throes of a tapered withdrawal, or quit cold turkey, depending on the flavor of the poison. But the cravings probably won't go away forever. The ever seductive siren of intoxication will whisper it's sweet songs into your ear, beckoning with lustful reveries of that familiar bliss that you once knew, nearer, louder in strife. Alas, with time, the voice softens, should you have the will to resist recurring temptations in the meanwhile.
- 1000units 8y ago
  Or you "upgrade" to smack.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
openloop 8y ago
This article is topical and reads like an 80's D.A.R.E. commercial. I know people addicted to say, food or even exercising too much. People with horrendous health problems as a result who continue to abuse. If your aim is to talk about drug addiction specifically this is also a bad title.
ChuckMeOut 8y ago
Not sure how to feel about this article. I'm about turn 28 and at various times in my past I have been addicted to cigarettes, methamphetamine, ketamine, heroin and tramadol. I'm currently clean, however I feel like I am always just one small slip away from sinking into the abyss, it takes a concentrated effort almost every day to avoid this abyss, I certainly don't feel like I'm growing out of it. I am happily married and have a high paying job that I love, I'm generally really quite happy about life but still feel the darkness calling.
- fpoling 8y ago
  The study does not say that all recovers, only 75%. And with alcohol and heroin the recovery is longer, until the age of 35 or so.
  - ChuckMeOut 8y ago
    I'd be interested to know a bit more about the method they used. Obviously anecdotal but when I started getting heavily involved in drugs my group of friends consisted of 7 people including myself, today only 4 of us are still alive, 75% recovery is not what I've experienced.
    - tixocloud 8y ago
      Not sure if it’s too personal or private so I’m sorry if it is but what made you get involved?
      - engineeringwoke 8y ago
        Yes OP there's an underlying reason to explain it. Without dealing with it, you never solve the problem
    - k_bx 8y ago
      And to add to the question on "what made you get involved", I would be interested in knowing which drugs were they (opioids and heroin?) Thank you, and sorry if it's too personal to ask
mac_was 8y ago
In my opinion this article is dangerous as not all prople grow out of their addictions, as we can see on the streets, or we cannot when it is hidden in houses, when parents abuse themselves and their kids when drinking alcohol. This article might suggest, ok I might be addicted but Ill grow out of it. So people dont want go for treatments. I havent got contact with my father anymore but his 50 now and Im fairly certain he did not stop drinking, as his dad until he died. Edit. Writing from my phone
- kranner 8y ago
  The article is not making the claim that everyone recovers from addiction on their own. It is refuting the opposite claim: that nobody recovers from addiction on their own.
  - BorRagnarok 8y ago
    The title is very misleading though. I would argue more people die from addiction than grow out of it.
    - kranner 8y ago
      The title is not misleading at all. The article does not say anything that disagrees with the title. Also it cites several studies in support of its thesis.
      - engineeringwoke 8y ago
        OP pushing his addict mentality on others. It's an externalization of his/her insecurities
        afiori 8y ago
        I think part of the conflict here is that addiction comes in a spectrum.
    - 8y ago
passing_through 8y ago
I was addicted to computer games for a while. I never even really liked gaming, but it was a way to tune out the horrible life at home. Eventually, I kind of trained myself to like games; it's really weird too, thinking back I was the kid who liked long-term gratification over short-term, but eventually gaming changed me. After I moved out, it was an anchor of sorts and I started playing even more. By this point, my gaming habits definitely matched up with the definition of addiction - at one point, I even went ~2 days without sleeping and eating. The big change for me was getting a job. I couldn't fuck this up (considering I had already flunked out of university, getting a job in my dream field was a miracle), so I quit computer games. I've "relapsed" a few times since and every single time it has been horrible. It consumes me completely. I have now also decided to basically cut out any easy-to-consume entertainment out of my life. I spend my free time on books, nature and sports. Looking back, it's the experience of totally fucking up my life through addiction that has helped me beat my addiction.
- hydrox24 8y ago
  > I have now also decided to basically cut out any easy-to-consume entertainment out of my life. I am by no means addicted to easy-to-consume entertainment, but I'm worried that it does impact my ability to focus on boring but important things. Could you share what steps you took, or what process you followed, to cut those forms of media out of your life? Has doing so reaped benefits besides more time to spend on other things?
- superpermutat0r 8y ago
  I was extremely desparate when I realized I could no longer pay for my World of Warcraft subscription when I was a kid. To the point of trying to scam people to pay for my account, trying credit card number generators and all sorts of silly things. I would wake up early in the morning, play the game until someone mentioned I should eat, I would eat, then continue playing, until someone mentioned I should eat, I'd continue playing until late at night, go to sleep and continue. I was extremely addicted and attached to the game. I dreamt about it, I thought about it, fantasized about it. 1 year passed, I started 8th grade and all of a sudden WoW and other computer games were extremely boring. I could play them for about 30 minutes and would just get fed up with any game. I was like that for years, and just recently I started Super Meat Boy and it had the same addictive fulfilling qualities that I felt when I was a kid, and I could spend hours on it. I completed the game, switched to playing others, but still couldn't get addicted to anything. I rarely play games now. Max 8 hours total playtime per year.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
interdiction 8y ago
I have only one true addiction, and it is coffee. Most “addictions” seem to be advanced exercises in bullshit artistry, from my perspective. But, the one that really throws me is compulsive gambling. This is the line where I draw clear distinction between chemical dependence, and... something else. Compulsive gambling definitely isn’t bullshit. You can sense that it’s a very powerful, real habit that people lose control over. Most other non-substance oriented addictions I tend to ignore, and gambling is my bellwether for nonsense. Cigarettes, for example, are mostly nonsense. The nicotine in tobacco is such a mildly addicting component, that a deeper truth sits behind it: people who refuse to drop cigarettes are trying to dominate a negotiation, regarding personal choices. They want the freedom to make bad choices. Cigarettes are easy to quit. The chemical dependence is pathetically tame. The people that insist on retaining the habit are really engaging in social signaling. They learned this aspect of power and status as teenagers, and this alone puts cigarettes in a station of nostalgia classified as comparable to first cars, first kisses and favorite music artists. That’s why people don’t quit. Other substances are tougher, for sure, but chemical dependence is only part of the story. Controlling obsession is an entirely different skill. It’s nit just about willpower, but also about deepley held beliefs and self perception. It’s not a new concept. It predates modern psychology with tales like Samson and Delilah and deriving strength from a lack of haircuts, or Dumbo’s magic feather. Superstition isn’t just about magical thinking, and can take root in daily rituals and bahvior. That’s probably why people might seem to grow out of it sooner or later. At some point, life interrupts and breaks the spell, one way or another.
- palimpsests 8y ago
  This model of addiction (chemical dependency + wanting the freedom to make bad choices) is not at all backed up by modern research, and reads like it is severely lacking in compassion and empathy for people who suffer from addictions - I feel sad hearing you call these people "bullshit artists" and labeling something that so powerfully controls and hurts millions of people (e.g. nicotine) "pathetic". Is it up to you to dictate what other people's experiences are? If someone has a crippling addiction to sex (a non-substance oriented addiction), do you believe that you can tell them that what they are saying is "nonsense" and that it actually isn't an addiction, and that they just need to "have more willpower". How is that in any way helpful? If you are open to hearing about what the medical, psychotherapeutic, and academic communities have been learning and working on in the past few decades around addiction research and treatment, A good place to start is the work of Dr. Gabor Maté: https://drgabormate.com/topic/addiction/ https://drgabormate.com/topic/addiction/.
WebDanube 8y ago
Can confirm anecdotally. Used to be super addicted to the online MOBA game, "DotA 2" back when I was in college. Stopped playing it after moving out from home (deleted my Steam account, in fact), and I haven't touched the game ever since. Guess my prefrontal cortex wrestled back control away from my "monkey brain." [0] [0]https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/10/why-procrastinators-procrastinate.html https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/10/why-procrastinators-procrasti...
thrownaway954 8y ago
I think articles like this are dangerous to us addicts cause it solidifies the "this is just a phase" mentality that many of us have. They sampled 42,000 people, but how many others had to die, have their lives ruined, or ever worst, hurt someone they loved or end up in prison because of their addiction? YES I'm sure some of us can quit on our own or can "grow out" of our addiction if we don't end up dead or in jail first. I'm sure there cancer patients out there who are cured and have never had a single treatment, but you can bet that most people with cancer get some sort of treatment and help. Bottom line is, YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO AT IT ALONE. There is help available, so why not use it? AA, NA, HA ,CA, Wellbriety, going to therapy, medical professional, it's all there to help so use it. You doesn't HAVE to take 15 years to "grow out" of alcoholism if you can get the support you need to help you quit sooner. Tonight I'm speaking at a DETOX and I suggest that they go through the 60 day RIT program that it offers so they have a better chance of beating their addiction. Again, please don't wait to get help. You don't have to fight this battle alone.
- avar 8y ago
  You're 100% right that people shouldn't have an attitude of "this harmful part of my life will fix itself". Although I don't think just observing that you'll likely "grow out" of it makes the article dangerous. People also tend to grow out of violent behavior (how many hyper-violent 20 v.s. 80 year olds are there?). That doesn't mean it's not harmful behavior when you're younger, or that it doesn't need to be addressed at that point. But it's just as dangerous to propose that simply because you have issues in your life that some religiously-motivated program like AA is the way to go. We should provide people with help that's scientifically developed and proved to be effective, and AA and its various sister programs are neither of those. They're just "get the drunks to worship god instead" programs. In recent years they've gained the thin veneer of talking about a "higher power" instead of "god", without becoming any more scientific or empirically-supported as a result. If you have a problem with addiction start by talking to your physician, not a church group.
  - pfisch 8y ago
    Are you saying that there are no statistics that back up AA as effective? I am pretty skeptical of a claim like that.
Ice_cream_suit 8y ago
Some of us die.
frereubu 8y ago
This matches my personal experience with a variety of drugs, although I stopped short of hard opiates. A large proportion of people who took drugs with me when I was younger got out before things got nasty. Which isn't to say everyone - there was one guy in particular who got into cheap speed and the attendant unhealthy lifestyle so much that his skin turned yellow. But a three factors that I don't see mentioned in the article, which anecdotally seemed to predict quite a bit of the difference, were a supportive family environment, insight into the nature of your drug use, and money. Supportive families helped because when people felt they were doing too much they could drop out of that scene, head home and dry out for a few months. Insight was important because it gave perspective on where they stood in regards to how their drug use was impacting their lives, and before it got really heavy they could head home. Money - enough spare cash to get home and families with enough to support the returning kid - made this kind of flexibility possible. If you don't have many or any of those three things, it becomes much more difficult to make the decision to stop early enough - although even if you have all three it doesn't guarantee anything. I doubt I would have found drug use such a positive experience if I hadn't had that safety net.
dagaci 8y ago
Addiction should not be seen as abnormal, it is actually extremely normal. Humans and all other animals need to actually addict to activities as this is part of the survival mechanics needed to perpetuate the species. However this addiction function exists at 'lower' level than the intellect, which is why its so hard for the higher function (the tiny conscious part) of the brain to stop an unwanted addiction. You grow out of addiction when the lower level brain decides that your addiction is not actually required for you to get food or sex. You can accelerate removing an unwanted addiction by paying very close attention to the mechanics of the activity and by simply introducing new activities especially if those activities are completed with food or sex.
- etaerc 8y ago
  I also believe addictions are a normal thing. But it's still a complex topic. E.g. what if food or sex are your addiction?
  - afiori 8y ago
    food and sex are two between others deep motivation, one of which is socialization. as a weak example mice in lab choose socialization over drugs often.
- eeZah7Ux 8y ago
  "Addiction is a brain disorder characterized by compulsive engagement in rewarding stimuli despite adverse consequences" You are confusing "addiction" with "reward". Addiction is not required nor beneficial.
- gnode 8y ago
  Addiction is by definition disordered and adverse. Animals have motivation which governs our behaviour, but that doesn't qualify as addiction. It may be more correct to say that motivation operates at a higher level than intellect. Motivation directs attention and overrides decision. The same mechanisms which make it hard to wilfully stop taking a drug make it hard for you to wilfully drown yourself or starve yourself if you decide to. I'd say that you grow out of addiction simply because your motivational calculus changes. Maybe there's something new from which you can get an influx of dopamine (perhaps new people or activities), or maybe a near death experience with the drug now means the thought of it triggers a noradrenaline response, and the fear overrides the motivation towards it.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
csunbird 8y ago
I would say people do not grow out of it, as a previous video game addict (skipping school, classes etc, the whole nine miles), the conditions that creates and fuels the addiction itself (be it being asocial, home or money problems) simply vanishes as the time goes on. If it does not vanish, the addiction continues, and if they arise again, the addict relapses. This is based on my experience. Of course, you can not expect that many years of addiction to simply not have any residual effects, for example I still do play video games a lot but I can't say I'm addicted to the point of skipping my job or destroying my whole life. In my case, it is not that dangerous to play video games but for a substance addict, it gets extremely dangerous and they surely struggle harder than I do. I think, instead of trying to cure the addiction first, the underlying cause of the addiction itself should be cured. After that, getting over the addiction becomes easier. Edit: I see comments on people concerned of addicts treating their problems as a phase. It is not a phase, you need to get the bottom of the problem first. It can get extremely hard to fix the underlying problem, especially if you do not get any help, so do not treat the addiction as a phase, but treat it as a symptom of a much bigger problem and fix the problem first while treating your addiction.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
Really an amazing insight perhaps not considered enough. But this: "moving from a less structured environment like college into a more constraining one like nine-to-five employment, " is telling. I knew people in SF who just 'moved away' and the change in setting, the lack of immediate access to 'the party lifestyle' and all it entails, means they just 'shifted gears' and cleaned up immediately. So I'm not sure if the 'aging out' due to brain developments is entirely the story here, rather than perhaps time allows for people to find other patterns of lifestyle. Though I do think the point about '18 years old' is quite powerful - keeping teens away from bad stuff might seem to be quite a good idea. ... that said, there could be other factors at play: kids from 'good, conscientious families' simply may not be quite as likely to need to try alt things, and less likely to get caught up later in life anyhow. There'd seem to be all sorts of other correlating factors there, however valid the point may be unto it's own.
samirm 8y ago
Aren't most people addicted to sugar and a lot also addicted to coffee? Pretty sure they don't "grow out" of those... Does this data take into account all those who died and therefore didn't "grow out"? I think the biggest issue with the colloquial idea of addiction is that most people don't realize it's a lot more dependent on social circumstance than it is on the "reward circuitry". People don't become addicts because of any certain drug or mechanism, they do so because they're trying to "deal" with some sort of social issue.
LifeLiverTransp 8y ago
So - build a monastry where free drugs are provided for simple work? Wait till the addicted get bored?

168 points by dedalus 8y ago

FatDrunknStupid 8y ago

Yeah! 51 and I'm still growing! Rock on.

jayalpha 8y ago

Could be a quote from Pele Stanton https://peele.net https://peele.net

Illli1l1iIli1I 8y ago

This headline (and note article is from 2014) is... not ideal. I think I take the most issue with "simply" -- as if recovering from any addiction is simple in any way. First off, I am 100% sure some people do "simply" grow out of their addiction. But what does that mean? What life changes happened during that period of growth that caused addiction to be a more manageable personal issue? For me, most recently at least, it was when I simply could not find a vein anymore. I had always had poor vein access and after close to 5 years of IV'ing black tar heroin, I had more abscesses than I had available veins. Muscling tar is not pleasant, often leads to an abscesses at the injection site, and has poor bioavailability, but if you are sick and have spent 20 minutes poking yourself at least 20 times (hopefully going through 2-3 syringes in the process as well, and having to deal with backloading your dose), the option becomes more appealing. All of this poking around looking for a flash leads to abscesses as well. With a lifetime of poor vein access, I was doing all the things they did to me in the hospital when I needed an IV: heated blankets, hydration, using alcohol swabs, tourniquets, at least attempting to rotate injection sites, and so on. When I discovered my hands and feet had slightly easier access, I was elated, but that only lasted a couple years, and it really, really, really hurts to miss in your hands and feet. Is that what they mean by "simply growing out of it"? If so, I feel kind of insulted. Eventually, after simply not being able to get high via IV anymore unless I got lucky, I did one last big detox (probably at least my 20th, including 2 in-patient ones), went back to my suboxone doctor, and have been stable on a low-ish dose of the sublingual suboxone for several years now. In my recovery I have been to hundreds of NA/AA meetings and volunteered with harm reduction groups and this concept of "I simply grew out of it" is not a common theme. What is much more common are things like 1) I couldn't stand sleeping outside anymore, 2) I got pregnant, 3) I ran out of vein access, 4) I had a real opportunity to stop using and took it (like rehab or strong social support or job support), 5) I was sick and tired of feeling sick and tired, and so on. Just to be sure, I am not saying "simply growing out of addiction" via "natural recovery" -- as the article discusses -- is not a thing. It's just not enough of a thing to warrant much attention on. A sincere congrats to the people who grow out of it (and, like I said, I'd like to hear more about what that growth process looked like), now let's help the millions of others who haven't.

fromthestart 8y ago
I appreciate your anecdote. I have no experience with heroin, but I imagine softer drugs with relatively mild or non existent withdrawal symptoms carry the kind of addiction kind you can grow out of. Say, pot, or various amphetamines.
- throwaway8879 8y ago
  It's so difficult to answer this as everyone's experience will be different. I do know that there were certain periods of my life where I didn't smoke pot because I was just very active with something or the other and did not want to be lazy. But I was probably using an upper during that time to "be productive". There's also got to be some kind of chemical/medical aspect to how a certain substance affects you individually, apart from how it affects everyone else. I was more of a cafeteria drug user and got bored really quickly and the only objective was to be high(or low), not necessarily an obsession with one kind of drug. For instance, heroin withdrawals were never stereotypical for me. I'd always thought of it as a high wearing off, and would fix it with any other drug that was available, it didn't strictly have to be heroin.
throwaway8879 8y ago
I agree with you. I think the "I simply grew out of it" is a realization that comes when I think about it after a couple years clean. It's obviously not that simple, and there were many other factors involved. It's also the easiest answer when I ask myself why I'm clean, rather than the hundreds of other reasons I would actually have to list. So I think it might just be a lazy answer for most people who are clean. I know it is for me. Good on you for staying clean, friend.
TheGrassyKnoll 8y ago
20 detoxes ? Holy crap, I salute your persistence. I was never a user, but 'rented' rooms (ok, I let em crash on my couch/stay at my house etc.,...OK, I was a fucking enabler, whatever) to several recovering (and non-recovering) H/meth/crack addicts. They all had legal and family problems that just buried them in never ending toil inside the system. I eventually picked up a case, and had to attend 20 something NA meetings myself. One of the most shocking things I remember was this old guy who had 20 years clean and then he relapsed. Wow. I just feel for these people that've fallen into this shit. I wish I could tell em something that would help, but I don't know...it's a terrible fork in the road.

throwaway8879 8y ago

Can't read the article for some reason. In any case, I somewhat agree with the title. Obviously it isn't going to be the case for every addict. Using/abusing just seems off-putting after a while, and is a major turn-off. I'm not sure how much this has to do with boredom, or a sense of "I'm clean now, addicts are losers, I'm not a loser any longer". In my case, it was just a massive waste of a decade for little to no gain other than some momentary feelings of almost-euphoria. It's just so superficial and a kind of escapism, at least was for me. Anyway, addiction is a lot more complex for generalizations, obviously. I met an older gentleman in rehab who was there for the 50-something time. That kind of put things in perspective for me.

Animats 8y ago

I didn't think it was "widely denied". I thought this was well known. There is a notable exception - smoking.

throwaway8879 8y ago
In my personal experience, cigarettes were far more difficult for me to quit than opiates/meth/etc or even alcohol. They are very sneaky that way.
- Nasrudith 8y ago
  Of course have you ever tried to get an alcohol or meth break at work? You get fired. (Granted if legitimate medical amphetamines or opiates they let you take the pill.) In all seriousness smoking has more "habit/ritual" components to it given oral fixation - in addition to the chemical aspect.

dang 8y ago

Discussed at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8396375 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8396375

warent 8y ago

It's an interesting hypothesis but they lost me at the part about ADHD. I abused substances when I was younger until eventually I learned healthy, constructive coping mechanisms and now I've been happily sober for years. That's an example of maturity helping someone out of addiction. Contrast that will ADD/ADHD. I'm not convinced it has anything to do with maturity or a lack thereof. Sure, mindfulness meditation helps quite a bit. But I think you can be mature, self sufficient, polite, etc, and yet still have ADHD, or immature, etc. and have ADHD. Not to say I'm a shining beacon of perfection with no room for self improvement, but the point is there's little to no correlation there.

danielvinson 8y ago
I think the correlation they were getting at is - both are mental health conditions and both have a high rate of recovery during patients' early 20s. While I agree with you that the correlation here doesn't have any direct relation to addiction based on the evidence provided (a study connecting ADD/ADHD to addiction would be VERY interesting), I think that the author included it to show that not all mental health conditions have a low recovery rate.
kennethh 8y ago
Children born at the end of the year are more likely to receive ADHD medication or an ADHD diagnosis than children born early in the year. This is according to a new study from the Norwegian Institute of Public Health. The researchers have examined ADHD diagnoses and ADHD medication use among 510,000 Norwegian children aged 6-14 years (born in the period 1998-2006). https://chadd.org/adhd-in-the-news/most-adhd-medicine-used-by-december-born-children/ https://chadd.org/adhd-in-the-news/most-adhd-medicine-used-b... So many of the ADHD children are basically immature compared to the rest of the class, no wonder since the difference between the oldest and youngest are almost a year.
afiori 8y ago
> Contrast that will ADD/ADHD. I'm not convinced it has anything to do with maturity or a lack thereof. Sure, mindfulness meditation helps quite a bit. But I think you can be mature, self sufficient, polite, etc, and yet still have ADHD, or immature, etc. and have ADHD. There is a very good video about 30 essential things parents should know about ADHD https://youtu.be/YSfCdBBqNXY https://youtu.be/YSfCdBBqNXY One of them is that when unmedicated on average a person with ADHD has the maturity of someone 2/3 of its age. Its is just an average, but is relevant to think how different a 14 years old and a 21 years old are (or 20 and 30).

fromthestart 8y ago

Makes sense. Drugs get boring. The euphoria fades. Then it becomes normal. And if chronic use continues, one eventually finds oneself, quite suddenly, in the grips of dependency. But then the appeal finally fades, too, when it becomes clear that the highs of yore that you still chase are gone forever - and suddenly it is worthwhile to brave the throes of a tapered withdrawal, or quit cold turkey, depending on the flavor of the poison. But the cravings probably won't go away forever. The ever seductive siren of intoxication will whisper it's sweet songs into your ear, beckoning with lustful reveries of that familiar bliss that you once knew, nearer, louder in strife. Alas, with time, the voice softens, should you have the will to resist recurring temptations in the meanwhile.

1000units 8y ago
Or you "upgrade" to smack.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

openloop 8y ago

This article is topical and reads like an 80's D.A.R.E. commercial. I know people addicted to say, food or even exercising too much. People with horrendous health problems as a result who continue to abuse. If your aim is to talk about drug addiction specifically this is also a bad title.

ChuckMeOut 8y ago

Not sure how to feel about this article. I'm about turn 28 and at various times in my past I have been addicted to cigarettes, methamphetamine, ketamine, heroin and tramadol. I'm currently clean, however I feel like I am always just one small slip away from sinking into the abyss, it takes a concentrated effort almost every day to avoid this abyss, I certainly don't feel like I'm growing out of it. I am happily married and have a high paying job that I love, I'm generally really quite happy about life but still feel the darkness calling.

fpoling 8y ago
The study does not say that all recovers, only 75%. And with alcohol and heroin the recovery is longer, until the age of 35 or so.
- ChuckMeOut 8y ago
  I'd be interested to know a bit more about the method they used. Obviously anecdotal but when I started getting heavily involved in drugs my group of friends consisted of 7 people including myself, today only 4 of us are still alive, 75% recovery is not what I've experienced.
  - tixocloud 8y ago
    Not sure if it’s too personal or private so I’m sorry if it is but what made you get involved?
    - engineeringwoke 8y ago
      Yes OP there's an underlying reason to explain it. Without dealing with it, you never solve the problem
  - k_bx 8y ago
    And to add to the question on "what made you get involved", I would be interested in knowing which drugs were they (opioids and heroin?) Thank you, and sorry if it's too personal to ask

mac_was 8y ago

In my opinion this article is dangerous as not all prople grow out of their addictions, as we can see on the streets, or we cannot when it is hidden in houses, when parents abuse themselves and their kids when drinking alcohol. This article might suggest, ok I might be addicted but Ill grow out of it. So people dont want go for treatments. I havent got contact with my father anymore but his 50 now and Im fairly certain he did not stop drinking, as his dad until he died. Edit. Writing from my phone

kranner 8y ago
The article is not making the claim that everyone recovers from addiction on their own. It is refuting the opposite claim: that nobody recovers from addiction on their own.
- BorRagnarok 8y ago
  The title is very misleading though. I would argue more people die from addiction than grow out of it.
  - kranner 8y ago
    The title is not misleading at all. The article does not say anything that disagrees with the title. Also it cites several studies in support of its thesis.
    - engineeringwoke 8y ago
      OP pushing his addict mentality on others. It's an externalization of his/her insecurities
      - afiori 8y ago
        I think part of the conflict here is that addiction comes in a spectrum.
  - 8y ago

passing_through 8y ago

I was addicted to computer games for a while. I never even really liked gaming, but it was a way to tune out the horrible life at home. Eventually, I kind of trained myself to like games; it's really weird too, thinking back I was the kid who liked long-term gratification over short-term, but eventually gaming changed me. After I moved out, it was an anchor of sorts and I started playing even more. By this point, my gaming habits definitely matched up with the definition of addiction - at one point, I even went ~2 days without sleeping and eating. The big change for me was getting a job. I couldn't fuck this up (considering I had already flunked out of university, getting a job in my dream field was a miracle), so I quit computer games. I've "relapsed" a few times since and every single time it has been horrible. It consumes me completely. I have now also decided to basically cut out any easy-to-consume entertainment out of my life. I spend my free time on books, nature and sports. Looking back, it's the experience of totally fucking up my life through addiction that has helped me beat my addiction.

hydrox24 8y ago
> I have now also decided to basically cut out any easy-to-consume entertainment out of my life. I am by no means addicted to easy-to-consume entertainment, but I'm worried that it does impact my ability to focus on boring but important things. Could you share what steps you took, or what process you followed, to cut those forms of media out of your life? Has doing so reaped benefits besides more time to spend on other things?
superpermutat0r 8y ago
I was extremely desparate when I realized I could no longer pay for my World of Warcraft subscription when I was a kid. To the point of trying to scam people to pay for my account, trying credit card number generators and all sorts of silly things. I would wake up early in the morning, play the game until someone mentioned I should eat, I would eat, then continue playing, until someone mentioned I should eat, I'd continue playing until late at night, go to sleep and continue. I was extremely addicted and attached to the game. I dreamt about it, I thought about it, fantasized about it. 1 year passed, I started 8th grade and all of a sudden WoW and other computer games were extremely boring. I could play them for about 30 minutes and would just get fed up with any game. I was like that for years, and just recently I started Super Meat Boy and it had the same addictive fulfilling qualities that I felt when I was a kid, and I could spend hours on it. I completed the game, switched to playing others, but still couldn't get addicted to anything. I rarely play games now. Max 8 hours total playtime per year.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

interdiction 8y ago

I have only one true addiction, and it is coffee. Most “addictions” seem to be advanced exercises in bullshit artistry, from my perspective. But, the one that really throws me is compulsive gambling. This is the line where I draw clear distinction between chemical dependence, and... something else. Compulsive gambling definitely isn’t bullshit. You can sense that it’s a very powerful, real habit that people lose control over. Most other non-substance oriented addictions I tend to ignore, and gambling is my bellwether for nonsense. Cigarettes, for example, are mostly nonsense. The nicotine in tobacco is such a mildly addicting component, that a deeper truth sits behind it: people who refuse to drop cigarettes are trying to dominate a negotiation, regarding personal choices. They want the freedom to make bad choices. Cigarettes are easy to quit. The chemical dependence is pathetically tame. The people that insist on retaining the habit are really engaging in social signaling. They learned this aspect of power and status as teenagers, and this alone puts cigarettes in a station of nostalgia classified as comparable to first cars, first kisses and favorite music artists. That’s why people don’t quit. Other substances are tougher, for sure, but chemical dependence is only part of the story. Controlling obsession is an entirely different skill. It’s nit just about willpower, but also about deepley held beliefs and self perception. It’s not a new concept. It predates modern psychology with tales like Samson and Delilah and deriving strength from a lack of haircuts, or Dumbo’s magic feather. Superstition isn’t just about magical thinking, and can take root in daily rituals and bahvior. That’s probably why people might seem to grow out of it sooner or later. At some point, life interrupts and breaks the spell, one way or another.

palimpsests 8y ago
This model of addiction (chemical dependency + wanting the freedom to make bad choices) is not at all backed up by modern research, and reads like it is severely lacking in compassion and empathy for people who suffer from addictions - I feel sad hearing you call these people "bullshit artists" and labeling something that so powerfully controls and hurts millions of people (e.g. nicotine) "pathetic". Is it up to you to dictate what other people's experiences are? If someone has a crippling addiction to sex (a non-substance oriented addiction), do you believe that you can tell them that what they are saying is "nonsense" and that it actually isn't an addiction, and that they just need to "have more willpower". How is that in any way helpful? If you are open to hearing about what the medical, psychotherapeutic, and academic communities have been learning and working on in the past few decades around addiction research and treatment, A good place to start is the work of Dr. Gabor Maté: https://drgabormate.com/topic/addiction/ https://drgabormate.com/topic/addiction/.

WebDanube 8y ago

Can confirm anecdotally. Used to be super addicted to the online MOBA game, "DotA 2" back when I was in college. Stopped playing it after moving out from home (deleted my Steam account, in fact), and I haven't touched the game ever since. Guess my prefrontal cortex wrestled back control away from my "monkey brain." [0] [0]https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/10/why-procrastinators-procrastinate.html https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/10/why-procrastinators-procrasti...

thrownaway954 8y ago

I think articles like this are dangerous to us addicts cause it solidifies the "this is just a phase" mentality that many of us have. They sampled 42,000 people, but how many others had to die, have their lives ruined, or ever worst, hurt someone they loved or end up in prison because of their addiction? YES I'm sure some of us can quit on our own or can "grow out" of our addiction if we don't end up dead or in jail first. I'm sure there cancer patients out there who are cured and have never had a single treatment, but you can bet that most people with cancer get some sort of treatment and help. Bottom line is, YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO AT IT ALONE. There is help available, so why not use it? AA, NA, HA ,CA, Wellbriety, going to therapy, medical professional, it's all there to help so use it. You doesn't HAVE to take 15 years to "grow out" of alcoholism if you can get the support you need to help you quit sooner. Tonight I'm speaking at a DETOX and I suggest that they go through the 60 day RIT program that it offers so they have a better chance of beating their addiction. Again, please don't wait to get help. You don't have to fight this battle alone.

avar 8y ago
You're 100% right that people shouldn't have an attitude of "this harmful part of my life will fix itself". Although I don't think just observing that you'll likely "grow out" of it makes the article dangerous. People also tend to grow out of violent behavior (how many hyper-violent 20 v.s. 80 year olds are there?). That doesn't mean it's not harmful behavior when you're younger, or that it doesn't need to be addressed at that point. But it's just as dangerous to propose that simply because you have issues in your life that some religiously-motivated program like AA is the way to go. We should provide people with help that's scientifically developed and proved to be effective, and AA and its various sister programs are neither of those. They're just "get the drunks to worship god instead" programs. In recent years they've gained the thin veneer of talking about a "higher power" instead of "god", without becoming any more scientific or empirically-supported as a result. If you have a problem with addiction start by talking to your physician, not a church group.
- pfisch 8y ago
  Are you saying that there are no statistics that back up AA as effective? I am pretty skeptical of a claim like that.

Ice_cream_suit 8y ago

Some of us die.

frereubu 8y ago

This matches my personal experience with a variety of drugs, although I stopped short of hard opiates. A large proportion of people who took drugs with me when I was younger got out before things got nasty. Which isn't to say everyone - there was one guy in particular who got into cheap speed and the attendant unhealthy lifestyle so much that his skin turned yellow. But a three factors that I don't see mentioned in the article, which anecdotally seemed to predict quite a bit of the difference, were a supportive family environment, insight into the nature of your drug use, and money. Supportive families helped because when people felt they were doing too much they could drop out of that scene, head home and dry out for a few months. Insight was important because it gave perspective on where they stood in regards to how their drug use was impacting their lives, and before it got really heavy they could head home. Money - enough spare cash to get home and families with enough to support the returning kid - made this kind of flexibility possible. If you don't have many or any of those three things, it becomes much more difficult to make the decision to stop early enough - although even if you have all three it doesn't guarantee anything. I doubt I would have found drug use such a positive experience if I hadn't had that safety net.

dagaci 8y ago

Addiction should not be seen as abnormal, it is actually extremely normal. Humans and all other animals need to actually addict to activities as this is part of the survival mechanics needed to perpetuate the species. However this addiction function exists at 'lower' level than the intellect, which is why its so hard for the higher function (the tiny conscious part) of the brain to stop an unwanted addiction. You grow out of addiction when the lower level brain decides that your addiction is not actually required for you to get food or sex. You can accelerate removing an unwanted addiction by paying very close attention to the mechanics of the activity and by simply introducing new activities especially if those activities are completed with food or sex.

etaerc 8y ago
I also believe addictions are a normal thing. But it's still a complex topic. E.g. what if food or sex are your addiction?
- afiori 8y ago
  food and sex are two between others deep motivation, one of which is socialization. as a weak example mice in lab choose socialization over drugs often.
eeZah7Ux 8y ago
"Addiction is a brain disorder characterized by compulsive engagement in rewarding stimuli despite adverse consequences" You are confusing "addiction" with "reward". Addiction is not required nor beneficial.
gnode 8y ago
Addiction is by definition disordered and adverse. Animals have motivation which governs our behaviour, but that doesn't qualify as addiction. It may be more correct to say that motivation operates at a higher level than intellect. Motivation directs attention and overrides decision. The same mechanisms which make it hard to wilfully stop taking a drug make it hard for you to wilfully drown yourself or starve yourself if you decide to. I'd say that you grow out of addiction simply because your motivational calculus changes. Maybe there's something new from which you can get an influx of dopamine (perhaps new people or activities), or maybe a near death experience with the drug now means the thought of it triggers a noradrenaline response, and the fear overrides the motivation towards it.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

csunbird 8y ago

I would say people do not grow out of it, as a previous video game addict (skipping school, classes etc, the whole nine miles), the conditions that creates and fuels the addiction itself (be it being asocial, home or money problems) simply vanishes as the time goes on. If it does not vanish, the addiction continues, and if they arise again, the addict relapses. This is based on my experience. Of course, you can not expect that many years of addiction to simply not have any residual effects, for example I still do play video games a lot but I can't say I'm addicted to the point of skipping my job or destroying my whole life. In my case, it is not that dangerous to play video games but for a substance addict, it gets extremely dangerous and they surely struggle harder than I do. I think, instead of trying to cure the addiction first, the underlying cause of the addiction itself should be cured. After that, getting over the addiction becomes easier. Edit: I see comments on people concerned of addicts treating their problems as a phase. It is not a phase, you need to get the bottom of the problem first. It can get extremely hard to fix the underlying problem, especially if you do not get any help, so do not treat the addiction as a phase, but treat it as a symptom of a much bigger problem and fix the problem first while treating your addiction.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

Really an amazing insight perhaps not considered enough. But this: "moving from a less structured environment like college into a more constraining one like nine-to-five employment, " is telling. I knew people in SF who just 'moved away' and the change in setting, the lack of immediate access to 'the party lifestyle' and all it entails, means they just 'shifted gears' and cleaned up immediately. So I'm not sure if the 'aging out' due to brain developments is entirely the story here, rather than perhaps time allows for people to find other patterns of lifestyle. Though I do think the point about '18 years old' is quite powerful - keeping teens away from bad stuff might seem to be quite a good idea. ... that said, there could be other factors at play: kids from 'good, conscientious families' simply may not be quite as likely to need to try alt things, and less likely to get caught up later in life anyhow. There'd seem to be all sorts of other correlating factors there, however valid the point may be unto it's own.

samirm 8y ago

Aren't most people addicted to sugar and a lot also addicted to coffee? Pretty sure they don't "grow out" of those... Does this data take into account all those who died and therefore didn't "grow out"? I think the biggest issue with the colloquial idea of addiction is that most people don't realize it's a lot more dependent on social circumstance than it is on the "reward circuitry". People don't become addicts because of any certain drug or mechanism, they do so because they're trying to "deal" with some sort of social issue.

LifeLiverTransp 8y ago

So - build a monastry where free drugs are provided for simple work? Wait till the addicted get bored?