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The author of this post is doing a huge disservice to the almost 600 tech experts listed. She is clearly suggesting that we should invite these experts not bec

by asien 8y ago

The author of this post is doing a huge disservice to the almost 600 tech experts listed. She is clearly suggesting that we should invite these experts not because they are experts but because they are women. How acceptable is that ? Hence , I will never get why tech industry believes so much it must be so « inclusive ». Okay then , can we have the same thing for female dominated industry ? Sociology , Education , Nurses ? Where are the articles complaining about those sectors being crowded with the opposite sex ? Why on earth do we have conventions with « Women who codes » but not «Women Carpenter » or « Women BrickLayer » etc... or those jobs degrading or something ? Tech is the only sectors that believes it is so ahead in terms of values that it’s « okay » to choose people based on criterias like gender or ethnicities similar to google hiring scandals[0], and call that « Progress », and « Inclusiveness » Sometimes I wish I was in the valley to work for top companies , then this type of articles pops up and it reminds me that I would have an arguments with nearly every co-workers on this topic almost every day. An expert should be invited because he has dedicated a portion of his career studying a problem in depth and has come up with solutions or concepts that help elevates the debate , of which he is willingly to share this knowledge with an audience. An expert should never be invited because of his or her gender or other criterias outside of his/her work. [0]https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/ex-recruiter-accuses-google-hiring-discrimination-against-white-asian-men-n853601 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/ex-recruiter-accu...

tachion 8y ago
The thing is that nurses, for example, don't defend their field so actively and loudly like, for example, you do. And that's the reason why fighting sexism in IT is so important.
ohjeez 8y ago
> Hence , I will never get why tech industry believes so much it must be so « inclusive ». Perhaps, if many people in a community complain, you should assume that they have a reason to do so? And you might listen, in order to learn the source of the upset and what can be done to fix it? Do you take the same attitude with your customers, clients, and users? It's an example of "It works on my computer:" "I don't see why they think the software is slow. So I'm not going to investigate to learn why they say the application isn't working, and I certainly am not going to try to improve its performance."
NeedMoreTea 8y ago
> Hence , I will never get why tech industry believes so much it must be so « inclusive ». Because being exclusive on the grounds of race, gender or age is against the law? All of those are illegal in the UK where the speakers are based. More diversity in the workplace also makes them more enjoyable places to work. They may also bring different experiences and points of view in how a site or piece of software may be most useful, leading to more success in the market. A market where women occasionally buy things too. Same for conference speakers. I want to hear perspectives that I cannot have had. There'd be no point going if everyone had my white middle aged male point of view. I want to understand and see the opportunities I'd otherwise miss, the UX, marketing or expectation differences between generations, gender or regions. I'm surprised we still have this conversation, sadly.
- theredbox 8y ago
  My experience is different. Women in my experience usually destroyed the informal relaxed atmosphere. Women introduced purely female related issues to the work place as opposed to males just acting like dicks. So instead of the usual bs at work where my male colleagues were arrogant, incompetent or unreliable the females brought gossiping, flirting, sleeping with other colleagues or the boss or thinking someone is hitting on them. This is purely my experience as someone that is just a mere observer and I absolutely have no horse in this race.
- 0db532a0 8y ago
  Got any proof on that market success? I still haven’t seen any. There are plenty of fields that do just fine without explicitly encouraging a balance of women while still being inclusive to women who show merit.
  - meghan-maternie 8y ago
    Yeah you know what is not a great body of objective evidence? 40 years of women being told we have an equal chance of success at anything we want to do, and yet, in October 2017 discovering that actually the vast majority of us have encountered some gross shit from men we work with. Please, for a moment, imagine the time and energy it might take to fend that off. How it might make you timid about taking meetings, asking for more, it might just wear you out. TLDR I’d like to see the study that controls for sexual harassment, that many male partners expect women who work to also be the primary caregiver for children when home, the fact that being incompetent but confident is not viewed kindly in women as it is in men, etc.
healstack 8y ago
As infuriating it is to read your comment, because it showcases immense lack of understanding on the topic only thing I can say is that from your end of the table what you write seems logical - but reality is much different. I cannot blame you for not experiencing a walk of a woman, a life of a woman and the journey of women in this world for the last (at least) 200 years - across different countries and cultures. Only thing I can ask you is to look at relevant research and reports that constantly show women are being discriminated against and looked over. Yes, in tech. Yes, in construction. Yes, at home with families. It's not about our choice only. It's about a clear existent barrier that is perpetuated over and over. Think of Saudi Arabia and position of the women in that society. Think of Sweden on the flip-side. Our lives might be very different, but if you dig below the surface you will find many commonalities - one being that women till this day do not have ownership over their bodies, let alone their journeys. I hope one day you will listen to some experiences of women around you and read necessary literature. And I hope you develop empathy for the journey, but also understanding why highlighting women who are doing something in predominately male industry should be lifted to visibility - especially if its people of color, immigrants and other groups that have it even harder. Have a great day.
roguecoder 8y ago
Your assumption that these women aren't being invited right now because they are less qualified than the men who are is not supported by any evidence you've offered. How is it you think event organizers build the list of people to invite? Do you imagine they start with a list of all 7.5 billion people and then sort by presentation skill? You are just being a defensive ass when it is pointed out that the current lists are all affirmative action towards men. Your belief that men can't compete if compared to women does men a disservice: surely men would like to know that they are being selected from a list of all the most qualified speakers, not that they got their slot only because no women were considered.
gdltec 8y ago
After many years of discouraging women and other underrepresented minorities in tech, those groups have a clear disadvantage and creating groups and other ways to help them catch up is what we need to balance things out. You are right about one thing, this isn’t only a problem within tech, there are many other industries and careers where women and other underrepresented minorities haven’t been given a chance to succeed and show their capabilities. But it has to start somewhere and with tech being so important for everything we do in our lives everyday, it just makes sense to be louder about this in this community to pledge for a change. Experts become experts after years of experience, coaching, support, and having people who approve of them and their knowledge all of the time. Women and minorities lack that support, like I said, we are just playing catch up now.
redstern 8y ago
Ok, I'll bite. Because men fundamentally suck at writing code and creating great software products. Women put rocketships on the moon, cracked code (WWII), oh yes and invented programming languages. The algorithm Google's built on? Discovered by a woman. Men gave us Ad based platforms and a bunch of cheesy bro products to rate hot chicks. Wow. So not impressed. Software is a pink collar profession. If you want male-dominated to the roots, go into hardware. By the way, male nurses and teachers get affirmative action and there are female trade groups. I'm not sure why there's a problem with inviting a bunch of women to get together and talk about their areas of expertise. Given the history, we'll likely solve some interesting problems. So I heard about this comment thread in one of my forums for women in tech. I think the main gist was sigh. We think you are either trolling for dollars or stupid. Factually, historically, and socially you're incorrect. So I took one for the team and corrected the record.

by asien 8y ago

tachion 8y ago

The thing is that nurses, for example, don't defend their field so actively and loudly like, for example, you do. And that's the reason why fighting sexism in IT is so important.

ohjeez 8y ago

> Hence , I will never get why tech industry believes so much it must be so « inclusive ». Perhaps, if many people in a community complain, you should assume that they have a reason to do so? And you might listen, in order to learn the source of the upset and what can be done to fix it? Do you take the same attitude with your customers, clients, and users? It's an example of "It works on my computer:" "I don't see why they think the software is slow. So I'm not going to investigate to learn why they say the application isn't working, and I certainly am not going to try to improve its performance."

NeedMoreTea 8y ago

> Hence , I will never get why tech industry believes so much it must be so « inclusive ». Because being exclusive on the grounds of race, gender or age is against the law? All of those are illegal in the UK where the speakers are based. More diversity in the workplace also makes them more enjoyable places to work. They may also bring different experiences and points of view in how a site or piece of software may be most useful, leading to more success in the market. A market where women occasionally buy things too. Same for conference speakers. I want to hear perspectives that I cannot have had. There'd be no point going if everyone had my white middle aged male point of view. I want to understand and see the opportunities I'd otherwise miss, the UX, marketing or expectation differences between generations, gender or regions. I'm surprised we still have this conversation, sadly.

theredbox 8y ago
My experience is different. Women in my experience usually destroyed the informal relaxed atmosphere. Women introduced purely female related issues to the work place as opposed to males just acting like dicks. So instead of the usual bs at work where my male colleagues were arrogant, incompetent or unreliable the females brought gossiping, flirting, sleeping with other colleagues or the boss or thinking someone is hitting on them. This is purely my experience as someone that is just a mere observer and I absolutely have no horse in this race.
0db532a0 8y ago
Got any proof on that market success? I still haven’t seen any. There are plenty of fields that do just fine without explicitly encouraging a balance of women while still being inclusive to women who show merit.
- meghan-maternie 8y ago
  Yeah you know what is not a great body of objective evidence? 40 years of women being told we have an equal chance of success at anything we want to do, and yet, in October 2017 discovering that actually the vast majority of us have encountered some gross shit from men we work with. Please, for a moment, imagine the time and energy it might take to fend that off. How it might make you timid about taking meetings, asking for more, it might just wear you out. TLDR I’d like to see the study that controls for sexual harassment, that many male partners expect women who work to also be the primary caregiver for children when home, the fact that being incompetent but confident is not viewed kindly in women as it is in men, etc.

healstack 8y ago

As infuriating it is to read your comment, because it showcases immense lack of understanding on the topic only thing I can say is that from your end of the table what you write seems logical - but reality is much different. I cannot blame you for not experiencing a walk of a woman, a life of a woman and the journey of women in this world for the last (at least) 200 years - across different countries and cultures. Only thing I can ask you is to look at relevant research and reports that constantly show women are being discriminated against and looked over. Yes, in tech. Yes, in construction. Yes, at home with families. It's not about our choice only. It's about a clear existent barrier that is perpetuated over and over. Think of Saudi Arabia and position of the women in that society. Think of Sweden on the flip-side. Our lives might be very different, but if you dig below the surface you will find many commonalities - one being that women till this day do not have ownership over their bodies, let alone their journeys. I hope one day you will listen to some experiences of women around you and read necessary literature. And I hope you develop empathy for the journey, but also understanding why highlighting women who are doing something in predominately male industry should be lifted to visibility - especially if its people of color, immigrants and other groups that have it even harder. Have a great day.

roguecoder 8y ago

Your assumption that these women aren't being invited right now because they are less qualified than the men who are is not supported by any evidence you've offered. How is it you think event organizers build the list of people to invite? Do you imagine they start with a list of all 7.5 billion people and then sort by presentation skill? You are just being a defensive ass when it is pointed out that the current lists are all affirmative action towards men. Your belief that men can't compete if compared to women does men a disservice: surely men would like to know that they are being selected from a list of all the most qualified speakers, not that they got their slot only because no women were considered.

gdltec 8y ago

After many years of discouraging women and other underrepresented minorities in tech, those groups have a clear disadvantage and creating groups and other ways to help them catch up is what we need to balance things out. You are right about one thing, this isn’t only a problem within tech, there are many other industries and careers where women and other underrepresented minorities haven’t been given a chance to succeed and show their capabilities. But it has to start somewhere and with tech being so important for everything we do in our lives everyday, it just makes sense to be louder about this in this community to pledge for a change. Experts become experts after years of experience, coaching, support, and having people who approve of them and their knowledge all of the time. Women and minorities lack that support, like I said, we are just playing catch up now.

redstern 8y ago

Ok, I'll bite. Because men fundamentally suck at writing code and creating great software products. Women put rocketships on the moon, cracked code (WWII), oh yes and invented programming languages. The algorithm Google's built on? Discovered by a woman. Men gave us Ad based platforms and a bunch of cheesy bro products to rate hot chicks. Wow. So not impressed. Software is a pink collar profession. If you want male-dominated to the roots, go into hardware. By the way, male nurses and teachers get affirmative action and there are female trade groups. I'm not sure why there's a problem with inviting a bunch of women to get together and talk about their areas of expertise. Given the history, we'll likely solve some interesting problems. So I heard about this comment thread in one of my forums for women in tech. I think the main gist was sigh. We think you are either trolling for dollars or stupid. Factually, historically, and socially you're incorrect. So I took one for the team and corrected the record.