6 ms·

New insights into mitochondria reveal how life expends energy

122 points by WMCRUN 8y ago

samstave 8y ago
>So if I focus all my resources on having sex, then effectively I take resources away from longevity. I take them away from surviving for longer, and so I shorten my lifespan almost deliberately in evolutionary terms. This is a very interesting statement - in some of the Esoteric Teachings I have read throughout my life - they specifically say that masturbation for simple pleasure (ejaculation in males) -- drains you of your life essence and is seen spiritually as a selfish-wasteful use of your life - and this shortens your lifespan and reduces your spiritual power. (additionally, doing very deliberate things with sexual energy is a basis in sex magick)... The idea being that you're pulling life-force from yourself and then 'projecting' intentionally toward what you're doing with that sexual energy -- which would be interesting if you were draining energy from mitochondria in general.
- rcw4256 8y ago
  The article is referring to tradeoffs made on evolutionary timescales, not the conservation of precious bodily fluids.
- visarga 8y ago
  I think this line of thinking goes into an extreme. Preserving bodily fluids is not as useful as the Esoteric Teachings claim, and can lead to accumulation of frustration. They just keep people horny and try to reuse that energy, with more or less success.
  - samstave 8y ago
    Not vouching for it per se... I just get triggered by something that I read and then it brings up all the seemingly related content I have ingested in the past... I find this protein folding talk to be relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm-3kovWpNQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm-3kovWpNQ
- clanrebornwow 8y ago
  Japan has some of the longest living people and they've least sex in the world.
Retric 8y ago
This is crap because of how misleading it is. For example yes a correlation exists between metabolic activity and lifespan across a wide range of life forms, but humans just like most birds are at the extreme edge. So, as humans already have rather extreme lifespans relative to most organisms meaning our bodies are likely already using the low hanging fruit in terms of extending lifespans. But, without that context it seems like birds have some advantages we could copy. This then hidden by first referencing a U shaped curve and ‘our place’ on it without clarifying it’s a metabolic curve not a lifespan curve. Finally “In a 2007 analysis it was shown that, when modern statistical methods for correcting for the effects of body size and phylogeny are employed, metabolic rate does not correlate with longevity in mammals or birds.”
- nonbel 8y ago
  >“In a 2007 analysis it was shown that, when modern statistical methods for correcting for the effects of body size and phylogeny are employed, metabolic rate does not correlate with longevity in mammals or birds.” I'm not finding this quote.
  - Retric 8y ago
    Ops forgot to post a link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rate-of-living_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rate-of-living_theory It’s relating to this study: https://academic.oup.com/biomedgerontology/article/62/2/149/574559 https://academic.oup.com/biomedgerontology/article/62/2/149/...
- SubiculumCode 8y ago
  So a 2007 paper had a null result.
  - Retric 8y ago
    The article being deceptive is IMO a larger issue than the possibility it’s based on a faulty premise.
fromthestart 8y ago
>But if the conditions are unfavorable, if we’re starving, there’s a kind of switch from gearing up for sex and protein synthesis and bulking up to gearing up for survival: battening down the hatches and waiting out the bad times. This genetic switch has been the focus of most work on aging over the last decade or so. Pure speculation, but based on its pervasiveness, I've wondered if depression could have been selected for through a mechanism such as this.
- shaki-dora 8y ago
  In my experience, reduced sex drive isn’t a terribly prominent symptom of depression. Personally, I have always liked the idea of depression being a sort of strike. A social signal “baked into” genetics. (Not that that interpretation has any more direct evidence. Maybe depression is just one of those bugs inevitable in billions of lines of self-modifying spaghetti code.)
est31 8y ago
Lifespans depend on far more than just one thing, but multiple. Telomere shortening is a contributor, mitochondria may be, senescent cells, stem cell death, mechanical issues like joint or tooth wear down (partly coped in humans for now but very much an issue in other animals especially mammals which for some odd reason, in general don't have constantly regrowing teeth), etc etc.
qwerty456127 8y ago
IMHO longevity is overrated. I would put importance of fighting age-related diseases (including tissue aging, immune and hormonal decline in particular) well above extending longevity in importance. I certainly don't want to live 200 years looking and feeling what is considered adequate to being this old but looking and feeling like a 25-35-years-old until I reach something near the age of 60 (of course longer is kind of better perhaps but if I had to - this is what I'd trade) and die quickly and easily without going through even slightest form of disability (defined by comparison to healthy young adults) and physical struggle seems like something I'd totally buy into.
- landryraccoon 8y ago
  I'm curious how old you are. I don't think your opinion is at all uncommon, but it always seems to come from people that are young. Life is really not that bad when you're old. Like, even when you're 60 there's a lot to live for. If I had to choose between living 40 years as a 40 year old or 25 years as a 25 year old it's not even close - I'd take being longevity at 40 in a heartbeat. Judging from how active my parents seem to be, I'd be happy to spend 100 years at retirement age too.
  - marcusjt 8y ago
    Given living standards in the West and thus the way we currently consume the Earth's resources, this planet cannot support everyone living to 80, let alone longer. Therefore surely better (in terms of the greater good) for us to live shorter lives, but full ones, free from disease/ageing/degeneration.
    - sbr464 8y ago
      I don’t agree or disagree with you but apologize you are getting downvoted. I think multiple points of view are important for this topic especially, as contentious as they may be.
    - landryraccoon 8y ago
      Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I think you're arguing that people dying means that the population is reduced? If so I think that's not the right conclusion. If people lived longer, healthier lives they might delay having children or put off having children entirely. It is not true that countries with lower life expectancy have smaller family sizes. One of the reasons people have children is because it is a sort of immortality - they want their genes and family to be carried on. But if you actually live longer, that particular reason for having kids is weakened.
peter303 8y ago
Thats what I call the Devils bargain: sex and death invented together a billion years ago. But it seems to worked in evolving complex life.
- cmrdporcupine 8y ago
  It works to ensure diversity, which in turns works to ensure survival of species through viruses, plagues, and parasites.
peter303 8y ago
But count we are really mitochondrians- a hundred times as many of them inside us as human cells. So human cells are really just vessels for mitochondria to make nore mitochondria with a bit of embelishment on the side.
- goldenkey 8y ago
  Maybe that's what George Lucas was thinking of when he came up with the term 'midchlorian.'
- landryraccoon 8y ago
  My laptop has more screws than CPUs. Does that mean my laptop is more of a screw holder than a computer?
  - lightedman 8y ago
    That used to actually be the running joke in the various laptop repair departments at this one repair depot I worked at.
  - gbaygon 8y ago
    wouldn't it be a fairer comparison screws to transistors?
    - landryraccoon 8y ago
      Analogies are pretty imperfect, but maybe lithium battery cells would be a better analogy to mitochondria.
  - masonic 8y ago
    It will be a functional screw holder longer than it will be a functional computer.
PavlikPaja 8y ago
Mitochondrial dysfuction comes primarily from manganese being replaced by iron, from the wrong Fe/Mn ratio (which the body has no way of correcting, as both are absorbed by the same mechanism and iron cannot be excreted.) or a deficiency in general, which results in mismetallation. E-coli has a similar problem with iron/manganese/zinc: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4192467/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4192467/ The general problem with iron is that while it is faster, it's also reactive in its free form, unlike manganese, which only works in proteins. The majority of the world population is supposedly iron deficient, but the numbers are likely based on populations that already suffered from iron overload; it is possible that animal lifespans were substantially shortened as the result of human activity which disrupted the mineral balance to the degree no animal evloved to deal with.
peterburkimsher 8y ago
Mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell.

122 points by WMCRUN 8y ago

>So if I focus all my resources on having sex, then effectively I take resources away from longevity. I take them away from surviving for longer, and so I shorten my lifespan almost deliberately in evolutionary terms. This is a very interesting statement - in some of the Esoteric Teachings I have read throughout my life - they specifically say that masturbation for simple pleasure (ejaculation in males) -- drains you of your life essence and is seen spiritually as a selfish-wasteful use of your life - and this shortens your lifespan and reduces your spiritual power. (additionally, doing very deliberate things with sexual energy is a basis in sex magick)... The idea being that you're pulling life-force from yourself and then 'projecting' intentionally toward what you're doing with that sexual energy -- which would be interesting if you were draining energy from mitochondria in general.

rcw4256 8y ago
The article is referring to tradeoffs made on evolutionary timescales, not the conservation of precious bodily fluids.
visarga 8y ago
I think this line of thinking goes into an extreme. Preserving bodily fluids is not as useful as the Esoteric Teachings claim, and can lead to accumulation of frustration. They just keep people horny and try to reuse that energy, with more or less success.
- samstave 8y ago
  Not vouching for it per se... I just get triggered by something that I read and then it brings up all the seemingly related content I have ingested in the past... I find this protein folding talk to be relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm-3kovWpNQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm-3kovWpNQ
clanrebornwow 8y ago
Japan has some of the longest living people and they've least sex in the world.

Retric 8y ago

This is crap because of how misleading it is. For example yes a correlation exists between metabolic activity and lifespan across a wide range of life forms, but humans just like most birds are at the extreme edge. So, as humans already have rather extreme lifespans relative to most organisms meaning our bodies are likely already using the low hanging fruit in terms of extending lifespans. But, without that context it seems like birds have some advantages we could copy. This then hidden by first referencing a U shaped curve and ‘our place’ on it without clarifying it’s a metabolic curve not a lifespan curve. Finally “In a 2007 analysis it was shown that, when modern statistical methods for correcting for the effects of body size and phylogeny are employed, metabolic rate does not correlate with longevity in mammals or birds.”

nonbel 8y ago
>“In a 2007 analysis it was shown that, when modern statistical methods for correcting for the effects of body size and phylogeny are employed, metabolic rate does not correlate with longevity in mammals or birds.” I'm not finding this quote.
- Retric 8y ago
  Ops forgot to post a link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rate-of-living_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rate-of-living_theory It’s relating to this study: https://academic.oup.com/biomedgerontology/article/62/2/149/574559 https://academic.oup.com/biomedgerontology/article/62/2/149/...
SubiculumCode 8y ago
So a 2007 paper had a null result.
- Retric 8y ago
  The article being deceptive is IMO a larger issue than the possibility it’s based on a faulty premise.

fromthestart 8y ago

>But if the conditions are unfavorable, if we’re starving, there’s a kind of switch from gearing up for sex and protein synthesis and bulking up to gearing up for survival: battening down the hatches and waiting out the bad times. This genetic switch has been the focus of most work on aging over the last decade or so. Pure speculation, but based on its pervasiveness, I've wondered if depression could have been selected for through a mechanism such as this.

shaki-dora 8y ago
In my experience, reduced sex drive isn’t a terribly prominent symptom of depression. Personally, I have always liked the idea of depression being a sort of strike. A social signal “baked into” genetics. (Not that that interpretation has any more direct evidence. Maybe depression is just one of those bugs inevitable in billions of lines of self-modifying spaghetti code.)

est31 8y ago

Lifespans depend on far more than just one thing, but multiple. Telomere shortening is a contributor, mitochondria may be, senescent cells, stem cell death, mechanical issues like joint or tooth wear down (partly coped in humans for now but very much an issue in other animals especially mammals which for some odd reason, in general don't have constantly regrowing teeth), etc etc.

qwerty456127 8y ago

IMHO longevity is overrated. I would put importance of fighting age-related diseases (including tissue aging, immune and hormonal decline in particular) well above extending longevity in importance. I certainly don't want to live 200 years looking and feeling what is considered adequate to being this old but looking and feeling like a 25-35-years-old until I reach something near the age of 60 (of course longer is kind of better perhaps but if I had to - this is what I'd trade) and die quickly and easily without going through even slightest form of disability (defined by comparison to healthy young adults) and physical struggle seems like something I'd totally buy into.

landryraccoon 8y ago
I'm curious how old you are. I don't think your opinion is at all uncommon, but it always seems to come from people that are young. Life is really not that bad when you're old. Like, even when you're 60 there's a lot to live for. If I had to choose between living 40 years as a 40 year old or 25 years as a 25 year old it's not even close - I'd take being longevity at 40 in a heartbeat. Judging from how active my parents seem to be, I'd be happy to spend 100 years at retirement age too.
- marcusjt 8y ago
  Given living standards in the West and thus the way we currently consume the Earth's resources, this planet cannot support everyone living to 80, let alone longer. Therefore surely better (in terms of the greater good) for us to live shorter lives, but full ones, free from disease/ageing/degeneration.
  - sbr464 8y ago
    I don’t agree or disagree with you but apologize you are getting downvoted. I think multiple points of view are important for this topic especially, as contentious as they may be.
  - landryraccoon 8y ago
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I think you're arguing that people dying means that the population is reduced? If so I think that's not the right conclusion. If people lived longer, healthier lives they might delay having children or put off having children entirely. It is not true that countries with lower life expectancy have smaller family sizes. One of the reasons people have children is because it is a sort of immortality - they want their genes and family to be carried on. But if you actually live longer, that particular reason for having kids is weakened.

peter303 8y ago

Thats what I call the Devils bargain: sex and death invented together a billion years ago. But it seems to worked in evolving complex life.

cmrdporcupine 8y ago
It works to ensure diversity, which in turns works to ensure survival of species through viruses, plagues, and parasites.

peter303 8y ago

But count we are really mitochondrians- a hundred times as many of them inside us as human cells. So human cells are really just vessels for mitochondria to make nore mitochondria with a bit of embelishment on the side.

goldenkey 8y ago
Maybe that's what George Lucas was thinking of when he came up with the term 'midchlorian.'
landryraccoon 8y ago
My laptop has more screws than CPUs. Does that mean my laptop is more of a screw holder than a computer?
- lightedman 8y ago
  That used to actually be the running joke in the various laptop repair departments at this one repair depot I worked at.
- gbaygon 8y ago
  wouldn't it be a fairer comparison screws to transistors?
  - landryraccoon 8y ago
    Analogies are pretty imperfect, but maybe lithium battery cells would be a better analogy to mitochondria.
- masonic 8y ago
  It will be a functional screw holder longer than it will be a functional computer.

PavlikPaja 8y ago

Mitochondrial dysfuction comes primarily from manganese being replaced by iron, from the wrong Fe/Mn ratio (which the body has no way of correcting, as both are absorbed by the same mechanism and iron cannot be excreted.) or a deficiency in general, which results in mismetallation. E-coli has a similar problem with iron/manganese/zinc: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4192467/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4192467/ The general problem with iron is that while it is faster, it's also reactive in its free form, unlike manganese, which only works in proteins. The majority of the world population is supposedly iron deficient, but the numbers are likely based on populations that already suffered from iron overload; it is possible that animal lifespans were substantially shortened as the result of human activity which disrupted the mineral balance to the degree no animal evloved to deal with.

peterburkimsher 8y ago

Mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell.