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I got seriously into fermentation several months ago. I really enjoy Bon Appetit's "It's Alive with Brad" series, which prompted me to read some of Sandor Katz

I got seriously into fermentation several months ago. I really enjoy Bon Appetit's "It's Alive with Brad" series, which prompted me to read some of Sandor Katz's books. I'm doing two ferments usually at a time, cycling between: sauerkraut, full-sour dill pickles, Russian pickled tomatoes (my favorite recipe so far has been this Indian-style 'kraut: https://myheartbeets.com/indian-sauerkraut/ https://myheartbeets.com/indian-sauerkraut/). I also started maintaining a sourdough starter. I want to try hot sauce and mead next. There is very little chance of getting sick or infecting oneself with Botulism with active vegetable ferments (i.e. not sanitizing then canning). Vegetables are covered in natural bacteria, and the conditions created inside the ferment make it essentially impossible for Botulism to thrive. Canning can be dangerous because the process of heating (i.e. killing off microbe activity) of a ferment leaves only Botulism because it has spores that protect it from heat. Some meat ferments require more care, and I've heard of some issues with say: fermenting garlic inside of olive oil. Overall, though, fermentation is one of the safest food preparation techniques we know of.

cproctor 8y ago
Fermented hot sauce (instead of vinegar) is a revelation, and not hard to get right!
- vram22 8y ago
  What kind of hot sauce is that? Sounds like a generic term (a sauce with heat from spices or chillies/chiles), but I suspect it may mean something more specific in the West, because of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_sauce https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_sauce
  - scrumbledober 8y ago
    Lactofermented hot sauce is just Chili's and salt and water left to ferment. Comes out something somewhere between Tabasco and Sriracha.
    - vram22 8y ago
      Got it now, thanks. Coincidentally, had just been making some green chilli pickle - just with salt and water and onion, although other methods and ingredients exist, because sometimes I like to keep it simple. Will try out another batch with fermentation.
  - itchyjunk 8y ago
    He is probably referring to hot sauces made out of fermented ingredients. The most popular one I can think of is the `sriracha` sauce [0]. I eyeballed my brine solution and got mold growing on my chilis though, for what it's worth. I was roughly following youtube channel `Brother green eats` video [1]. I guess I should have followed more carefully. [0] https://www.eater.com/2015/3/20/8253411/new-sriracha-chef-hot-sauce-restaurant https://www.eater.com/2015/3/20/8253411/new-sriracha-chef-ho... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiNl0Jv6xTw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiNl0Jv6xTw
    - vram22 8y ago
      Thanks. Interesting, will check out that video.
    - elhudy 8y ago
      Peppers take more salinity than most vegetables. Just make sure you have them covered 100% as well, or they mold guaranteed.
  - cproctor 8y ago
    It's pretty flexible, but I'll usually cut up a dozen jalapeños, half a head of garlic, some coriander and cumin, pack it down in a jar, and cover it with water and somewhere around 3% salt by weight. If you don't have a scale, just mix up some water that's saltier than you would really want to drink, but not so salty that you'd be unable to drink a few cups of it. Ideally nobody is sticking up out of the water, as that's where mold will form. You can use a plate or some kind of weight, or stir it all once a day, or just let it sit and throw out anything that starts getting moldy. Let this sit on the counter for a week or two until the brine and the peppers get sour from lactobacillic fermentation. It's up to you. When you like the taste, blend it all smooth and put it in a jar in the fridge. You'll get the same sour spiciness you're used to in hot sauce, but much more umami and depth in the flavors. Vinegar-based hot sauce is quite one-noted in comparison. Note: I really recommend Katz's "Art of Fermentation" as a source of inspiration. I used to get annoyed by the fact that he doesn't actually give recipes, but have come to realize that you don't really need them. There are really only a few core processes with infinite variations, and precise measurements would most likely just lead you astray because you'll invariably need to respond to different produce and different temperatures. Troubleshooting: Sometimes the brine starts to get cloudy, or a thin layer of surface yeasts forms. It's harmless but can lend a funk to the flavor. If you don't like this, change the conditions to select for the desired bacteria: make the brine saltier and/or keep it somewhere cooler. You can even keep it in the fridge, but then fermentation will be much slower. Also, sometimes the garlic turns blue. Also harmless. Bonus: Sauerkraut couldn't be easier: Shred a bunch of cabbage (it's such a pleasure to use a mandoline for this) and add 1.5% salt by weight. Squeeze and knead the cabbage until it feels like wet laundry. Pack it into a jar; there should be enough liquid to submerge the cabbage. Again, find a way to keep it covered and wait 7-10 days. If you keep the brine from an old batch, you can dramatically speed up the next batch by mixing some in.
    - vram22 8y ago
      Thanks, those sound like good techniques. I said something similar to what you say in your 5th paragraph, about responding to variations, in another comment in this thread, about making yogurt. Good stuff. Will check out the book too - had read about it a while ago somewhere, and had it on my radar.
victor106 8y ago
When I was in India I had this thing called “idli”. It tastes amazing dipped in a soup called “sambar”. And dipped in a few pickles which they call “chutney”. Upon inqurring I came to know th at It’s made from mixing fermented rice and fermented dals. Not just the taste but it also feels light on the stomach and it feels ( I am not sure if it actually is) healthy. They also have something called the “dosa” that is like a crepe made from fermenting rice and dals. I strongly suggest trying it. Not all places in the US serve good idli and dosa though. I tried making it in my apartment but the fermentation failed a few times so I gave up.
- BiggusDijkus 8y ago
  Dosa and Idli are from the South Side of India. I have roots there, specifically Kerala. In my childhood days, my mom used to make Idli and/or Dosa every single day. She soaked the dals and rice around midday in water and used a blender(Indian blender btw, they start at 500W motor rating and are the 4x4s of the blender world) to grind them to a batter, add salt and kept overnight on the kitchen counter for fermentation. Next day morning, we'd make amazing Idli and/Dosa for breakfast. Here in Amsterdam, we have a 'Saravana Bhavan' restaurant in De Pijp, they have the best South Indian cuisine in the country. They are a global chain and you may find 'Saravana Bhavan' in North America and in the UK. The chutney you have encountered is most likely one of the following https://www.vegrecipesofindia.com/red-coconut-chutney-recipe-kerala-style/ https://www.vegrecipesofindia.com/red-coconut-chutney-recipe... https://cookpad.com/us/recipes/2615806-kerala-coconut-chutney https://cookpad.com/us/recipes/2615806-kerala-coconut-chutne...
- uptownfunk 8y ago
  I am a North Indian so idli dosa is not a native food for me, but I use my vitamix to blend up some rice and urad dal into a nice paste, ferment it in a preheated oven, and next day we have excellent dosa. I really like mine crispy so the key is to really cook it until it gets nice and crispy on a nonstick surface. Tastes great with a coconut based chutney, or even a nice Spicey peanut sauce.
- AareyBaba 8y ago
  If you live in the US you can find the fermented mix ready to cook at local indian grocery stores. https://shasthaonline.com/collections/batter/products/batter-2-pack https://shasthaonline.com/collections/batter/products/batter...
_hardwaregeek 8y ago
It's Alive is great because Brad isn't overly cautious or rigorous himself. I used to be intimidated by fermenting because all the guides I saw had stuff about having to sanitize everything or you'll get botulism, or having to get the brine perfect in ratio. But really, it's not that strict. Sure, the brine has to be in the right neighborhood, but a few grams won't kill your ferment. Also he's hilarious
- wool_gather 8y ago
  To amplify this, it's also worth noting that botulism is not a real risk if you don't even bother canning, and just refrigerate the food after it's fermented. (As I mentioned in response to the parent, lack of oxygen is required for botulinum toxin production.) Canning is only necessary for long-term storage at room temperature; the significant bacteria in food generally don't like the cold. Storing your product in the fridge makes getting started with fermentation really simple!
wool_gather 8y ago
None of this is meant to contradict your point that fermentation is safe and a wonderful thing to do. I think fermentation is fun, and it makes delicious things! But...I'd like to get some terminology and what appears to be a small misconception straightened out here: > infecting oneself with Botulism It's not an infection, it's poisoning. > heating [...] leaves only Botulism because it has spores "Botulism" is the condition of being poisoned; the poison is "botulinum toxin". It is named after the organism that produces it, Clostridium botulinum (and there are other closely-related species). And it is that organism that has the spores. > the conditions created inside the ferment make it essentially impossible for Botulism to thrive I think this is important to get right. Specifically, it's the highly acidic environment. The acid remains effective even when the food is heated, inhibiting bacterial growth and toxin production. Also worth noting is that the spores can indeed be destroyed by getting them hot enough for long enough. The difficulty is that the "hot enough" temperature is above boiling. This is why pressure canning is required for low-acid foods like soup or fish. (The toxin itself can also be destroyed by proper heating.) Initially -- before canning -- the presence of oxygen is an essential factor. The bacteria won't produce toxin except in a low-oxygen environment. You mentioned garlic in olive oil -- the lack of oxygen is precisely the problem here. (For completeness, another factor in inhibiting growth is what's called "available water": a large amount of dissolved sugar sort of "locks up" the water in the food. This is the main factor preventing spoilage in jams/jellies.) Final side note, FWIW: > Some meat ferments require more care Indeed; if they're sealed in a casing (e.g., salami), sodium or potassium nitrite is necessary to ensure safety.
elhudy 8y ago
I'm in the same boat with The rotating ferments. I just did a hot sauce and it turned out delicious, but is a bit runny. I would say don't add brine until you've tried it first. Can you share your pickled tomatoes recipe?

cproctor 8y ago

Fermented hot sauce (instead of vinegar) is a revelation, and not hard to get right!

vram22 8y ago
What kind of hot sauce is that? Sounds like a generic term (a sauce with heat from spices or chillies/chiles), but I suspect it may mean something more specific in the West, because of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_sauce https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_sauce
- scrumbledober 8y ago
  Lactofermented hot sauce is just Chili's and salt and water left to ferment. Comes out something somewhere between Tabasco and Sriracha.
  - vram22 8y ago
    Got it now, thanks. Coincidentally, had just been making some green chilli pickle - just with salt and water and onion, although other methods and ingredients exist, because sometimes I like to keep it simple. Will try out another batch with fermentation.
- itchyjunk 8y ago
  He is probably referring to hot sauces made out of fermented ingredients. The most popular one I can think of is the `sriracha` sauce [0]. I eyeballed my brine solution and got mold growing on my chilis though, for what it's worth. I was roughly following youtube channel `Brother green eats` video [1]. I guess I should have followed more carefully. [0] https://www.eater.com/2015/3/20/8253411/new-sriracha-chef-hot-sauce-restaurant https://www.eater.com/2015/3/20/8253411/new-sriracha-chef-ho... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiNl0Jv6xTw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiNl0Jv6xTw
  - vram22 8y ago
    Thanks. Interesting, will check out that video.
  - elhudy 8y ago
    Peppers take more salinity than most vegetables. Just make sure you have them covered 100% as well, or they mold guaranteed.
- cproctor 8y ago
  It's pretty flexible, but I'll usually cut up a dozen jalapeños, half a head of garlic, some coriander and cumin, pack it down in a jar, and cover it with water and somewhere around 3% salt by weight. If you don't have a scale, just mix up some water that's saltier than you would really want to drink, but not so salty that you'd be unable to drink a few cups of it. Ideally nobody is sticking up out of the water, as that's where mold will form. You can use a plate or some kind of weight, or stir it all once a day, or just let it sit and throw out anything that starts getting moldy. Let this sit on the counter for a week or two until the brine and the peppers get sour from lactobacillic fermentation. It's up to you. When you like the taste, blend it all smooth and put it in a jar in the fridge. You'll get the same sour spiciness you're used to in hot sauce, but much more umami and depth in the flavors. Vinegar-based hot sauce is quite one-noted in comparison. Note: I really recommend Katz's "Art of Fermentation" as a source of inspiration. I used to get annoyed by the fact that he doesn't actually give recipes, but have come to realize that you don't really need them. There are really only a few core processes with infinite variations, and precise measurements would most likely just lead you astray because you'll invariably need to respond to different produce and different temperatures. Troubleshooting: Sometimes the brine starts to get cloudy, or a thin layer of surface yeasts forms. It's harmless but can lend a funk to the flavor. If you don't like this, change the conditions to select for the desired bacteria: make the brine saltier and/or keep it somewhere cooler. You can even keep it in the fridge, but then fermentation will be much slower. Also, sometimes the garlic turns blue. Also harmless. Bonus: Sauerkraut couldn't be easier: Shred a bunch of cabbage (it's such a pleasure to use a mandoline for this) and add 1.5% salt by weight. Squeeze and knead the cabbage until it feels like wet laundry. Pack it into a jar; there should be enough liquid to submerge the cabbage. Again, find a way to keep it covered and wait 7-10 days. If you keep the brine from an old batch, you can dramatically speed up the next batch by mixing some in.
  - vram22 8y ago
    Thanks, those sound like good techniques. I said something similar to what you say in your 5th paragraph, about responding to variations, in another comment in this thread, about making yogurt. Good stuff. Will check out the book too - had read about it a while ago somewhere, and had it on my radar.

victor106 8y ago

When I was in India I had this thing called “idli”. It tastes amazing dipped in a soup called “sambar”. And dipped in a few pickles which they call “chutney”. Upon inqurring I came to know th at It’s made from mixing fermented rice and fermented dals. Not just the taste but it also feels light on the stomach and it feels ( I am not sure if it actually is) healthy. They also have something called the “dosa” that is like a crepe made from fermenting rice and dals. I strongly suggest trying it. Not all places in the US serve good idli and dosa though. I tried making it in my apartment but the fermentation failed a few times so I gave up.

BiggusDijkus 8y ago
Dosa and Idli are from the South Side of India. I have roots there, specifically Kerala. In my childhood days, my mom used to make Idli and/or Dosa every single day. She soaked the dals and rice around midday in water and used a blender(Indian blender btw, they start at 500W motor rating and are the 4x4s of the blender world) to grind them to a batter, add salt and kept overnight on the kitchen counter for fermentation. Next day morning, we'd make amazing Idli and/Dosa for breakfast. Here in Amsterdam, we have a 'Saravana Bhavan' restaurant in De Pijp, they have the best South Indian cuisine in the country. They are a global chain and you may find 'Saravana Bhavan' in North America and in the UK. The chutney you have encountered is most likely one of the following https://www.vegrecipesofindia.com/red-coconut-chutney-recipe-kerala-style/ https://www.vegrecipesofindia.com/red-coconut-chutney-recipe... https://cookpad.com/us/recipes/2615806-kerala-coconut-chutney https://cookpad.com/us/recipes/2615806-kerala-coconut-chutne...
uptownfunk 8y ago
I am a North Indian so idli dosa is not a native food for me, but I use my vitamix to blend up some rice and urad dal into a nice paste, ferment it in a preheated oven, and next day we have excellent dosa. I really like mine crispy so the key is to really cook it until it gets nice and crispy on a nonstick surface. Tastes great with a coconut based chutney, or even a nice Spicey peanut sauce.
AareyBaba 8y ago
If you live in the US you can find the fermented mix ready to cook at local indian grocery stores. https://shasthaonline.com/collections/batter/products/batter-2-pack https://shasthaonline.com/collections/batter/products/batter...

_hardwaregeek 8y ago

It's Alive is great because Brad isn't overly cautious or rigorous himself. I used to be intimidated by fermenting because all the guides I saw had stuff about having to sanitize everything or you'll get botulism, or having to get the brine perfect in ratio. But really, it's not that strict. Sure, the brine has to be in the right neighborhood, but a few grams won't kill your ferment. Also he's hilarious

wool_gather 8y ago
To amplify this, it's also worth noting that botulism is not a real risk if you don't even bother canning, and just refrigerate the food after it's fermented. (As I mentioned in response to the parent, lack of oxygen is required for botulinum toxin production.) Canning is only necessary for long-term storage at room temperature; the significant bacteria in food generally don't like the cold. Storing your product in the fridge makes getting started with fermentation really simple!

wool_gather 8y ago

None of this is meant to contradict your point that fermentation is safe and a wonderful thing to do. I think fermentation is fun, and it makes delicious things! But...I'd like to get some terminology and what appears to be a small misconception straightened out here: > infecting oneself with Botulism It's not an infection, it's poisoning. > heating [...] leaves only Botulism because it has spores "Botulism" is the condition of being poisoned; the poison is "botulinum toxin". It is named after the organism that produces it, Clostridium botulinum (and there are other closely-related species). And it is that organism that has the spores. > the conditions created inside the ferment make it essentially impossible for Botulism to thrive I think this is important to get right. Specifically, it's the highly acidic environment. The acid remains effective even when the food is heated, inhibiting bacterial growth and toxin production. Also worth noting is that the spores can indeed be destroyed by getting them hot enough for long enough. The difficulty is that the "hot enough" temperature is above boiling. This is why pressure canning is required for low-acid foods like soup or fish. (The toxin itself can also be destroyed by proper heating.) Initially -- before canning -- the presence of oxygen is an essential factor. The bacteria won't produce toxin except in a low-oxygen environment. You mentioned garlic in olive oil -- the lack of oxygen is precisely the problem here. (For completeness, another factor in inhibiting growth is what's called "available water": a large amount of dissolved sugar sort of "locks up" the water in the food. This is the main factor preventing spoilage in jams/jellies.) Final side note, FWIW: > Some meat ferments require more care Indeed; if they're sealed in a casing (e.g., salami), sodium or potassium nitrite is necessary to ensure safety.

elhudy 8y ago

I'm in the same boat with The rotating ferments. I just did a hot sauce and it turned out delicious, but is a bit runny. I would say don't add brine until you've tried it first. Can you share your pickled tomatoes recipe?