5 ms·

Pigeon Towers: A Low-Tech Alternative to Synthetic Fertilizers

75 points by camtarn 8y ago

gwern 8y ago
As elegant a solution as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windcatcher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windcatcher towers. Millennia of agricultural refinements...
- kbenson 8y ago
  Which I remember from it being covered here before.[1]. I seem to recall it was covered in more depth before that discussion, but can't locate it at the moment. :/ 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17670608 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17670608
GlenTheMachine 8y ago
In Cappadocia (central Turkey) there are millenia-old settlements carved out of volcanic tuff. You can hike down a valley and see structure after structure, not protected in any way, just out thre for anyone to climb into and explore. Churches, domestic dwelling, tombs... it was amazing. But the most common type of structure was a simple cave dug into the rock, with fifty to a hundred niches carved into the walls, and then the door was bricked uo with just three shoebox-sized openings left in them. We eventually found a guy there who represented himself as a guide, and he told us that these were pigeon coops, which the folks who inhabited these settlements used for their eggs. Which made no sense to me. Pigeon eggs are tiny. That's an awful lot of work for an egg the size of your thumb. But what makes perfect sense is to keep pigeons for their droppings. The place is practically desert. The soil is infertile. But with fertilizer... you could survive.
- benj111 8y ago
  "volcanic tuff" I thought you'd made a typo there. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuff https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuff
patcheudor 8y ago
Interesting their waste would be collected and put into fields given the serious health risks involved. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/61646.php https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/61646.php
- trav4225 8y ago
  There are also other scary health risks in that region: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11711136 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11711136
  - krastanov 8y ago
    This is a fascinating story, but it seems unfair to single out "that region" when disasters of ignorance like this happen all the time in both developed and developing countries.
    - trav4225 8y ago
      Yup, certainly didn't mean to single it out. However, that is the region most known among geologists as an erionite hazard.
- TheBill 8y ago
  Bird droppings & phosphate were in such high demand that entire islands like Naru were strip mined for it up into the early 1900's. Haber/Bosch did not kick off until 1909 leading to manufactured fertilizer. Also death from starvation is a pretty serious health risk.
- chabes 8y ago
  In organic systems, manure should be composted. According to the NOP (§205.203(c)), raw manure must be composted unless: - Applied to land used for a crop not intended for human consumption; - Incorporated into the soil not less than 120 days prior to the harvest of a product whose edible portion has direct contact with the soil surface or soil particles; or - Incorporated into the soil not less than 90 days prior to the harvest of a product whose edible portion does not have direct contact with the soil surface or soil particles. Edit - There’s much more to the compost standards. For more info, see here: https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/Manure%20in%20Organic%20Production%20Systems_FINAL.pdf https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/Manure%20...
benj111 8y ago
It seems to me the major downside here is that you have to disperse the guano yourself. A roost on wheels, akin to a chicken tractor [1] would work better wouldn't it? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tractor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tractor
- arthurofbabylon 8y ago
  Perhaps such precise manual application can also be an upside.
  - benj111 8y ago
    Perhaps. Would you want to manure a field by hand though? There would also be a health benefit to the birds not being in their own excrement all the time.
arthurofbabylon 8y ago
Can anyone think of an equivalent expression in software? (Genuinely curious here. Many software solutions are derived from ecological phenomenon and agricultural practices - this seems like a neat one to mimic.)
lota-putty 8y ago
It's far better to compost agri waste directly than this pigeon-shit(chewing a dollar to shit a penny). Pigeons eat mostly seeds so does sparrows. Any insect/pest eating bird species fare better here wrt farming.
- kaveh_h 8y ago
  Composts need worms and other type of insects that compose the waste plants. It could be a slower process in certain part of the world if these insects are not plenty as a result of dry climate. Besides the production output is probably far higher than what the pigeon consumption (not a penny for a dollar as you suggest), otherwise why would these people bother for thousands of years.
  - chabes 8y ago
    Compost needs microbes more than macrobes. Anyway, it seems like the system is much more passive than folks are realizing. The bird waste collects over long periods of time, and is presumably removed in a mostly composted state.
aaron695 8y ago
> Pigeon Towers: A Low-Tech Alternative to Synthetic Fertilizers This only works if you like perpetual motion machines. They feed off the grain in the fields so they are not going to give back more from the fields than they take. But they do turn grain into meat, eat pests, sold for status symbols and racing, and most of all are a important part of a nation identity. I'd like to see a proper study but 100% doubt they could be used to increase yields in itself and while we destroy native lands for farming we must use it at as high a levels as possible. I suspect even when land was less intensively farmed 1000 years ago their status (Google for pics, they are impressive and not just Iran) and liking meat was still what made them viable, not crop yields. I also suspect they are just a sneaky way to steal from you neighbours, this is what is more interesting.
ggm 8y ago
The investment in perpetuated technology in this region is high. Qanat for instance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat These things demand social capital. They don't work well as solo effort they need love and repairs

75 points by camtarn 8y ago

As elegant a solution as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windcatcher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windcatcher towers. Millennia of agricultural refinements...

kbenson 8y ago
Which I remember from it being covered here before.[1]. I seem to recall it was covered in more depth before that discussion, but can't locate it at the moment. :/ 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17670608 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17670608

GlenTheMachine 8y ago

In Cappadocia (central Turkey) there are millenia-old settlements carved out of volcanic tuff. You can hike down a valley and see structure after structure, not protected in any way, just out thre for anyone to climb into and explore. Churches, domestic dwelling, tombs... it was amazing. But the most common type of structure was a simple cave dug into the rock, with fifty to a hundred niches carved into the walls, and then the door was bricked uo with just three shoebox-sized openings left in them. We eventually found a guy there who represented himself as a guide, and he told us that these were pigeon coops, which the folks who inhabited these settlements used for their eggs. Which made no sense to me. Pigeon eggs are tiny. That's an awful lot of work for an egg the size of your thumb. But what makes perfect sense is to keep pigeons for their droppings. The place is practically desert. The soil is infertile. But with fertilizer... you could survive.

benj111 8y ago
"volcanic tuff" I thought you'd made a typo there. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuff https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuff

patcheudor 8y ago

Interesting their waste would be collected and put into fields given the serious health risks involved. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/61646.php https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/61646.php

trav4225 8y ago
There are also other scary health risks in that region: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11711136 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11711136
- krastanov 8y ago
  This is a fascinating story, but it seems unfair to single out "that region" when disasters of ignorance like this happen all the time in both developed and developing countries.
  - trav4225 8y ago
    Yup, certainly didn't mean to single it out. However, that is the region most known among geologists as an erionite hazard.
TheBill 8y ago
Bird droppings & phosphate were in such high demand that entire islands like Naru were strip mined for it up into the early 1900's. Haber/Bosch did not kick off until 1909 leading to manufactured fertilizer. Also death from starvation is a pretty serious health risk.
chabes 8y ago
In organic systems, manure should be composted. According to the NOP (§205.203(c)), raw manure must be composted unless: - Applied to land used for a crop not intended for human consumption; - Incorporated into the soil not less than 120 days prior to the harvest of a product whose edible portion has direct contact with the soil surface or soil particles; or - Incorporated into the soil not less than 90 days prior to the harvest of a product whose edible portion does not have direct contact with the soil surface or soil particles. Edit - There’s much more to the compost standards. For more info, see here: https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/Manure%20in%20Organic%20Production%20Systems_FINAL.pdf https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/Manure%20...

benj111 8y ago

It seems to me the major downside here is that you have to disperse the guano yourself. A roost on wheels, akin to a chicken tractor [1] would work better wouldn't it? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tractor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tractor

arthurofbabylon 8y ago
Perhaps such precise manual application can also be an upside.
- benj111 8y ago
  Perhaps. Would you want to manure a field by hand though? There would also be a health benefit to the birds not being in their own excrement all the time.

arthurofbabylon 8y ago

Can anyone think of an equivalent expression in software? (Genuinely curious here. Many software solutions are derived from ecological phenomenon and agricultural practices - this seems like a neat one to mimic.)

lota-putty 8y ago

It's far better to compost agri waste directly than this pigeon-shit(chewing a dollar to shit a penny). Pigeons eat mostly seeds so does sparrows. Any insect/pest eating bird species fare better here wrt farming.

kaveh_h 8y ago
Composts need worms and other type of insects that compose the waste plants. It could be a slower process in certain part of the world if these insects are not plenty as a result of dry climate. Besides the production output is probably far higher than what the pigeon consumption (not a penny for a dollar as you suggest), otherwise why would these people bother for thousands of years.
- chabes 8y ago
  Compost needs microbes more than macrobes. Anyway, it seems like the system is much more passive than folks are realizing. The bird waste collects over long periods of time, and is presumably removed in a mostly composted state.

aaron695 8y ago

> Pigeon Towers: A Low-Tech Alternative to Synthetic Fertilizers This only works if you like perpetual motion machines. They feed off the grain in the fields so they are not going to give back more from the fields than they take. But they do turn grain into meat, eat pests, sold for status symbols and racing, and most of all are a important part of a nation identity. I'd like to see a proper study but 100% doubt they could be used to increase yields in itself and while we destroy native lands for farming we must use it at as high a levels as possible. I suspect even when land was less intensively farmed 1000 years ago their status (Google for pics, they are impressive and not just Iran) and liking meat was still what made them viable, not crop yields. I also suspect they are just a sneaky way to steal from you neighbours, this is what is more interesting.

ggm 8y ago

The investment in perpetuated technology in this region is high. Qanat for instance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat These things demand social capital. They don't work well as solo effort they need love and repairs