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> The whole thing wasn't economically useful or necessary from the very beginning That's your claim. Enough people here have been thinking the opposite. > oth

• woodpanel 8y ago
  Again, your „data“ consists solely of political aligned think-tanks. Agora Energiewende is by no means a neutral organisation, with even proponents of green energy repeatedly criticizing agora for deliberately “making false assumptions out of unambiguous datasets”. [1] [1] “Aus zum Teil eindeutigem Datenmaterial werden falsche und zudem nicht im Einklang mit bisherigen politischen Aussagen und Zusicherungen stehende Schlüsse gezogen.” https://senertec-center-nrw-sued.de/File/MR%207b_Stellungnahme%20des%20B%20KWK%20zur%20Studie%20der%20Agora%20Energiewende%20DIE%20ROLLE%20DER.pdf https://senertec-center-nrw-sued.de/File/MR%207b_Stellungnah...
  • lispm 8y ago
    > Again, your „data“ consists solely of political aligned think-tanks Instead of trying to understand what the study describes (which is not 'data') you attack their so-called 'political alignment'. Then you deflect it to a totally different topic. > Agora Energiewende is by no means a neutral organisation. There are no neutral organizations. The goal of the foundation is well documented. https://www.agora-energiewende.de/en/about-us/agora-energiewende/ https://www.agora-energiewende.de/en/about-us/agora-energiew... > even proponents of green energy B.KWK Bundesverband Kraft-Wärme-Kopplung e.V. are proponents of cogeneration - which is a technology independent of 'green energy' and widely used with fossil-fuel or nuclear power plants. The Bundesverband KWK is lobbying about lots of money - often for gas-powered power plants - while there was pressure from the EU to reduce/remove the special treatment by the German government.
    • zeroname 8y ago
      > There are no neutral organizations. That's only fair to say, therefore you must not mind me quoting some facts highlighted by "the other side": "From the viewpoint of security of supply, so far wind power in Germany has replaced conventional power plant output of no more than 150MW. For comparison: In terms of the stability of the electricity grid in Germany, a power plant capacity of about 77,000 to 82,000 MW is required at the time of the annual peak load, which can occur usually on a late afternoon on a day in the period from November to February and is not known in advance" https://docs.wind-watch.org/VGB-Windstudie-2017-Teil-1-EN.pdf https://docs.wind-watch.org/VGB-Windstudie-2017-Teil-1-EN.pd... Your source just doesn't really deal with base load at all, even though that's the giant pink cigar-smoking elephant in the room. It can't be taken serious. It's starting with a premise ("Energiewende" is necessary) and works its way backwards, carefully avoiding to deal with the real issues. It's implying significant technological breakthroughs coming out of left field. It's all supposed to happen with taxpayer/consumer money, thrown around like candy. There's profiteering everywhere, lots of PR and lobbying, lots of moral grandstanding. In that environment, I can almost guarantee you, the money will be in the wrong hands. It won't be there when the real opportunities appear.
      • 8y ago
• zeroname 8y ago
  > That's your claim. That's common sense. If something is both economically useful and necessary, it finances itself. You don't need subsidies at all, at most you need loans. > Enough people here have been thinking the opposite. So what? If "enough people" believe in Santa Claus, does that mean he'll all bring us presents on Christmas? > Actually Germany a) does not have generally the most expensive electricity in Europe - check out industry prices for electricity in Europe. Yes, industry is exempt because of lobbying. If industry had to pay those horrendous prices, it would damage Germany's competitiveness. Therefore, more to pay for the average citizen. > If you followed recent protests in France, then you have seen that is also about higher energy prices for the public - which has been kept artificially low so far. First of all, France has the cheapest electricity in all of Europe. Those protests were sparked by a "green tax" on fuel. I don't know what your point is, but it sounds like "green policy causes civil unrest in France". It's not helping your argument. > That's a very shallow study about a non-goal (100%). Fine, you may rely on 20% fossil fuels and maybe you'll be able to reduce the required storage cost from "absolutely infeasible" to "monumentally expensive". All to the end of removing a smidgen (less than 1%) from global CO2 emissions. The rest of the (developing) world isn't going to follow suit with that kind of pretentious nonsense. > A more detailed study from 2013 That's all projections on what should happen, based on lots of ifs and maybes. It's utterly useless.
  • lispm 8y ago
    > That's common sense. If something is both economically useful and necessary, it finances itself. You don't need subsidies at all, at most you need loans. That's an illusion, especially in the energy sector. It has been for decades. > France has the cheapest electricity in all of Europe. Because the costs are hidden and paid by the tax payer. The energy industry is mostly state owned and the price is political. That makes it not possible to charge the consumer with the real costs (like finding billions for the aging and expensive nuclear reactor fleet or for replacing them with newer reactors) - any president trying to do so would and does face mass protests. Additionally, the industry would be dead in a second if the government wouldn't finance the costs and hide it from the consumer. One can see how this works in the UK with EDF's reactor: "If Hinkley really comes on stream by 2025 as planned, it will sell electricity at a guaranteed price that is double the current market level, with the excess cost passed to every UK consumer" https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/an-energy-crisis-is-looming-but-ministers-are-distracted-by-brexit/ https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/an-energy-crisis-is-loom... That's the future of France... > The rest of the (developing) world isn't going to follow suit with that kind of pretentious nonsense. Actually quite a lot of countries are.