5 ms·

> It's not 'unsolved' - it's just that it was economically not useful nor necessary nor wanted to store wind electricity in larger scales and this might be the

> It's not 'unsolved' - it's just that it was economically not useful nor necessary nor wanted to store wind electricity in larger scales and this might be the case for another decade. Then we will see more storage coming online. The whole thing wasn't economically useful or necessary from the very beginning, otherwise it wouldn't have needed massive subsidies that made Germany have the most expensive electricity in Europe. > It's not 'unsolved' in the sense that we don't know what to do. It's just that storage needs are just starting to increase. You don't know what to do. The storage requirements are massive: https://www.oulu.fi/blogs/how-much-storage-does-the-energiewende-need https://www.oulu.fi/blogs/how-much-storage-does-the-energiew... Think about it, if you did know what to do, why aren't all the politicians pointing to some clear-cut roadmap on how to achieve the goal, using all the great engineering prowess that Germany is famous for?

lispm 8y ago
> The whole thing wasn't economically useful or necessary from the very beginning That's your claim. Enough people here have been thinking the opposite. > otherwise it wouldn't have needed massive subsidies that made Germany have the most expensive electricity in Europe. Actually Germany a) does not have generally the most expensive electricity in Europe - check out industry prices for electricity in Europe. If you followed recent protests in France, then you have seen that is also about higher energy prices for the public - which has been kept artificially low so far. https://www.euractiv.com/section/electricity/news/yellow-vests-killed-eu-bid-to-phase-out-regulated-electricity-prices/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/electricity/news/yellow-ves... b) its also useful to make energy expensive - it helps to keep energy consumption low and the money gets invested back into modern infrastructure, research&development, build-up of new industries, ... > The storage requirements are massive That's a very shallow study about a non-goal (100%). A more detailed study from 2013: https://www.agora-energiewende.de/fileadmin2/Projekte/2013/speicher-in-der-energiewende/Agora_Speicherstudie_Web.pdf https://www.agora-energiewende.de/fileadmin2/Projekte/2013/s... a shorter english version https://www.agora-energiewende.de/fileadmin2/Projekte/2013/speicher-in-der-energiewende/Agora_Speicherstudie_EN_web.pdf https://www.agora-energiewende.de/fileadmin2/Projekte/2013/s... The current big picture of the Energiewende for 2030... https://www.agora-energiewende.de/fileadmin2/Projekte/2017/Big_Picture/134_Big-Picture_EN_WEB.pdf https://www.agora-energiewende.de/fileadmin2/Projekte/2017/B...
- woodpanel 8y ago
  Again, your „data“ consists solely of political aligned think-tanks. Agora Energiewende is by no means a neutral organisation, with even proponents of green energy repeatedly criticizing agora for deliberately “making false assumptions out of unambiguous datasets”. [1] [1] “Aus zum Teil eindeutigem Datenmaterial werden falsche und zudem nicht im Einklang mit bisherigen politischen Aussagen und Zusicherungen stehende Schlüsse gezogen.” https://senertec-center-nrw-sued.de/File/MR%207b_Stellungnahme%20des%20B%20KWK%20zur%20Studie%20der%20Agora%20Energiewende%20DIE%20ROLLE%20DER.pdf https://senertec-center-nrw-sued.de/File/MR%207b_Stellungnah...
  - lispm 8y ago
    > Again, your „data“ consists solely of political aligned think-tanks Instead of trying to understand what the study describes (which is not 'data') you attack their so-called 'political alignment'. Then you deflect it to a totally different topic. > Agora Energiewende is by no means a neutral organisation. There are no neutral organizations. The goal of the foundation is well documented. https://www.agora-energiewende.de/en/about-us/agora-energiewende/ https://www.agora-energiewende.de/en/about-us/agora-energiew... > even proponents of green energy B.KWK Bundesverband Kraft-Wärme-Kopplung e.V. are proponents of cogeneration - which is a technology independent of 'green energy' and widely used with fossil-fuel or nuclear power plants. The Bundesverband KWK is lobbying about lots of money - often for gas-powered power plants - while there was pressure from the EU to reduce/remove the special treatment by the German government.
    - zeroname 8y ago
      > There are no neutral organizations. That's only fair to say, therefore you must not mind me quoting some facts highlighted by "the other side": "From the viewpoint of security of supply, so far wind power in Germany has replaced conventional power plant output of no more than 150MW. For comparison: In terms of the stability of the electricity grid in Germany, a power plant capacity of about 77,000 to 82,000 MW is required at the time of the annual peak load, which can occur usually on a late afternoon on a day in the period from November to February and is not known in advance" https://docs.wind-watch.org/VGB-Windstudie-2017-Teil-1-EN.pdf https://docs.wind-watch.org/VGB-Windstudie-2017-Teil-1-EN.pd... Your source just doesn't really deal with base load at all, even though that's the giant pink cigar-smoking elephant in the room. It can't be taken serious. It's starting with a premise ("Energiewende" is necessary) and works its way backwards, carefully avoiding to deal with the real issues. It's implying significant technological breakthroughs coming out of left field. It's all supposed to happen with taxpayer/consumer money, thrown around like candy. There's profiteering everywhere, lots of PR and lobbying, lots of moral grandstanding. In that environment, I can almost guarantee you, the money will be in the wrong hands. It won't be there when the real opportunities appear.

lispm 8y ago

> The whole thing wasn't economically useful or necessary from the very beginning That's your claim. Enough people here have been thinking the opposite. > otherwise it wouldn't have needed massive subsidies that made Germany have the most expensive electricity in Europe. Actually Germany a) does not have generally the most expensive electricity in Europe - check out industry prices for electricity in Europe. If you followed recent protests in France, then you have seen that is also about higher energy prices for the public - which has been kept artificially low so far. https://www.euractiv.com/section/electricity/news/yellow-vests-killed-eu-bid-to-phase-out-regulated-electricity-prices/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/electricity/news/yellow-ves... b) its also useful to make energy expensive - it helps to keep energy consumption low and the money gets invested back into modern infrastructure, research&development, build-up of new industries, ... > The storage requirements are massive That's a very shallow study about a non-goal (100%). A more detailed study from 2013: https://www.agora-energiewende.de/fileadmin2/Projekte/2013/speicher-in-der-energiewende/Agora_Speicherstudie_Web.pdf https://www.agora-energiewende.de/fileadmin2/Projekte/2013/s... a shorter english version https://www.agora-energiewende.de/fileadmin2/Projekte/2013/speicher-in-der-energiewende/Agora_Speicherstudie_EN_web.pdf https://www.agora-energiewende.de/fileadmin2/Projekte/2013/s... The current big picture of the Energiewende for 2030... https://www.agora-energiewende.de/fileadmin2/Projekte/2017/Big_Picture/134_Big-Picture_EN_WEB.pdf https://www.agora-energiewende.de/fileadmin2/Projekte/2017/B...

woodpanel 8y ago
Again, your „data“ consists solely of political aligned think-tanks. Agora Energiewende is by no means a neutral organisation, with even proponents of green energy repeatedly criticizing agora for deliberately “making false assumptions out of unambiguous datasets”. [1] [1] “Aus zum Teil eindeutigem Datenmaterial werden falsche und zudem nicht im Einklang mit bisherigen politischen Aussagen und Zusicherungen stehende Schlüsse gezogen.” https://senertec-center-nrw-sued.de/File/MR%207b_Stellungnahme%20des%20B%20KWK%20zur%20Studie%20der%20Agora%20Energiewende%20DIE%20ROLLE%20DER.pdf https://senertec-center-nrw-sued.de/File/MR%207b_Stellungnah...
- lispm 8y ago
  > Again, your „data“ consists solely of political aligned think-tanks Instead of trying to understand what the study describes (which is not 'data') you attack their so-called 'political alignment'. Then you deflect it to a totally different topic. > Agora Energiewende is by no means a neutral organisation. There are no neutral organizations. The goal of the foundation is well documented. https://www.agora-energiewende.de/en/about-us/agora-energiewende/ https://www.agora-energiewende.de/en/about-us/agora-energiew... > even proponents of green energy B.KWK Bundesverband Kraft-Wärme-Kopplung e.V. are proponents of cogeneration - which is a technology independent of 'green energy' and widely used with fossil-fuel or nuclear power plants. The Bundesverband KWK is lobbying about lots of money - often for gas-powered power plants - while there was pressure from the EU to reduce/remove the special treatment by the German government.
  - zeroname 8y ago
    > There are no neutral organizations. That's only fair to say, therefore you must not mind me quoting some facts highlighted by "the other side": "From the viewpoint of security of supply, so far wind power in Germany has replaced conventional power plant output of no more than 150MW. For comparison: In terms of the stability of the electricity grid in Germany, a power plant capacity of about 77,000 to 82,000 MW is required at the time of the annual peak load, which can occur usually on a late afternoon on a day in the period from November to February and is not known in advance" https://docs.wind-watch.org/VGB-Windstudie-2017-Teil-1-EN.pdf https://docs.wind-watch.org/VGB-Windstudie-2017-Teil-1-EN.pd... Your source just doesn't really deal with base load at all, even though that's the giant pink cigar-smoking elephant in the room. It can't be taken serious. It's starting with a premise ("Energiewende" is necessary) and works its way backwards, carefully avoiding to deal with the real issues. It's implying significant technological breakthroughs coming out of left field. It's all supposed to happen with taxpayer/consumer money, thrown around like candy. There's profiteering everywhere, lots of PR and lobbying, lots of moral grandstanding. In that environment, I can almost guarantee you, the money will be in the wrong hands. It won't be there when the real opportunities appear.