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It's absurd that such an economic powerhouse still relies on coal so much. If Germany, with all its wealth, is still dragging coal power out to 2038, how are w

by Pxtl 8y ago

It's absurd that such an economic powerhouse still relies on coal so much. If Germany, with all its wealth, is still dragging coal power out to 2038, how are we supposed to expect timely movement from poorer countries?

xxgreg 8y ago
What I find even more absurd is the United States, despite producing a huge amount of natural gas, consumes more coal per-capita than Germany. https://www.statista.com/statistics/604946/per-capita-coal-consumption-in-selected-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/604946/per-capita-coal-c... Edit: sorry that link got pay walled. Try this one. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/coal-consumption-per-capita https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/coal-consumption-per-capi... This is 2015 data - and the US has narrowed the gap since.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- lenticular 8y ago
  The good news is that coal is now more expensive than gas, and even more the solar and wind in high insolation/windy areas. Unfortunately, since coal is no longer competitive, the Trump administration has been talking about subsidizing it.
- danielvf 8y ago
  Coal [electricity] in the US is down to 60% of what it was ten years ago. Since the second half of 2015, the US has been generating more electricity with natural gas than with coal. The current difference between them is larger than the entirety of US solar production. https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_1_01 https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph...
  - xxgreg 8y ago
    Coal isn't just used for electricity generation. If you look at the 2017 BP energy report numbers the US is still about 20% above Germany in coal consumption per capita. (Not sure when 2018 numbers come out.) I'm glad to see the US is reducing emissions. However ideally it wouldn't be due to swapping one fossil fuel for another. Makes you wonder what will happen if the prices of coal/gas flip again.
    - danielvf 8y ago
      The US is adding a lot of solar generation - in just the last two years our solar electricity generation increased by more than the total solar output of Germany.
- antisthenes 8y ago
  And what's up with Japan's steadily rising use of coal energy? They are still a top 5 world economy.
  - xxgreg 8y ago
    The usual answer is "because Fukushima shut down the nuclear industry, duh". But this is obviously wrong as when looking at the data. Much of the increase was between 2000-2010. I wonder if it's due to the monopoly structures of the energy business shielding them from the changes that the rest of the world has been seeing. I wonder how much of the coal is used for electricity vs steel making etc. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/coal-consumption-per-capita https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/coal-consumption-per-capi...
indigo945 8y ago
There are two reasons that are particular to Germany here. In the wake of the Fukushima disaster, there were heavy protests in Germany that made the country shut down all its nuclear power plants permanently, which was more than a dozen plants. This means that a "bridge" technology needed to be found until the entire economy could be made to use renewables at some point in the future, and coal was readily available. Secondly, coal has a relatively good image among Germany's working class. Coal mines used to offer employment to lots of otherwise underprivileged Germans, especially in the Ruhr region of Western Germany, and coal mining continues to this day. Of course, things are changing in Germany. In the last year, there were week-long left-wing protests against clearing an old-growth forest for coal mining, which brought attention to the issue and might trigger some change. However, Greenpeace Germany's suggestion to shut off coal and switch to burning natural gas instead is met with some resistance across the political spectrum, given that Germany cannot procure gas from anywhere but Russia, and EU-Russian relationships are somewhat cool recently. We'll see where we end up, I guess. In any case, Germany is still a much greener country than e.g. the United States, who recently stopped promoting climate protection policies altogether. Until we have convinced the United States that they need to protect the environment, there is scarce leverage (and scarce reason) to persuade the developing countries.
- netsharc 8y ago
  Were there really heavy protests in Germany after Fukushima? It happened a few days before state elections in Baden Wuerttemberg, so Merkel cynically said her party is now against nuclear power, to try to save its chances in that election (and it didn't work, the Greens won a lot).
  - indigo945 8y ago
    The state elections absolutely played a part in it, but there were indeed heavy protests too. See for example (article in German): https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article12970772/Hunderttausende-demonstrieren-gegen-Atomkraft.html https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article12970772/Hund...
  - majewsky 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Tomte 8y ago
Coal is available. There are coal deposits in Germany. We don't have much else in terms of natural resources. So while coal absolutely must be phased out, it's surely not "absurd" that Germany historically relied on coal.

by Pxtl 8y ago

xxgreg 8y ago

What I find even more absurd is the United States, despite producing a huge amount of natural gas, consumes more coal per-capita than Germany. https://www.statista.com/statistics/604946/per-capita-coal-consumption-in-selected-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/604946/per-capita-coal-c... Edit: sorry that link got pay walled. Try this one. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/coal-consumption-per-capita https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/coal-consumption-per-capi... This is 2015 data - and the US has narrowed the gap since.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
lenticular 8y ago
The good news is that coal is now more expensive than gas, and even more the solar and wind in high insolation/windy areas. Unfortunately, since coal is no longer competitive, the Trump administration has been talking about subsidizing it.
danielvf 8y ago
Coal [electricity] in the US is down to 60% of what it was ten years ago. Since the second half of 2015, the US has been generating more electricity with natural gas than with coal. The current difference between them is larger than the entirety of US solar production. https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_1_01 https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph...
- xxgreg 8y ago
  Coal isn't just used for electricity generation. If you look at the 2017 BP energy report numbers the US is still about 20% above Germany in coal consumption per capita. (Not sure when 2018 numbers come out.) I'm glad to see the US is reducing emissions. However ideally it wouldn't be due to swapping one fossil fuel for another. Makes you wonder what will happen if the prices of coal/gas flip again.
  - danielvf 8y ago
    The US is adding a lot of solar generation - in just the last two years our solar electricity generation increased by more than the total solar output of Germany.
antisthenes 8y ago
And what's up with Japan's steadily rising use of coal energy? They are still a top 5 world economy.
- xxgreg 8y ago
  The usual answer is "because Fukushima shut down the nuclear industry, duh". But this is obviously wrong as when looking at the data. Much of the increase was between 2000-2010. I wonder if it's due to the monopoly structures of the energy business shielding them from the changes that the rest of the world has been seeing. I wonder how much of the coal is used for electricity vs steel making etc. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/coal-consumption-per-capita https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/coal-consumption-per-capi...

indigo945 8y ago

There are two reasons that are particular to Germany here. In the wake of the Fukushima disaster, there were heavy protests in Germany that made the country shut down all its nuclear power plants permanently, which was more than a dozen plants. This means that a "bridge" technology needed to be found until the entire economy could be made to use renewables at some point in the future, and coal was readily available. Secondly, coal has a relatively good image among Germany's working class. Coal mines used to offer employment to lots of otherwise underprivileged Germans, especially in the Ruhr region of Western Germany, and coal mining continues to this day. Of course, things are changing in Germany. In the last year, there were week-long left-wing protests against clearing an old-growth forest for coal mining, which brought attention to the issue and might trigger some change. However, Greenpeace Germany's suggestion to shut off coal and switch to burning natural gas instead is met with some resistance across the political spectrum, given that Germany cannot procure gas from anywhere but Russia, and EU-Russian relationships are somewhat cool recently. We'll see where we end up, I guess. In any case, Germany is still a much greener country than e.g. the United States, who recently stopped promoting climate protection policies altogether. Until we have convinced the United States that they need to protect the environment, there is scarce leverage (and scarce reason) to persuade the developing countries.

netsharc 8y ago
Were there really heavy protests in Germany after Fukushima? It happened a few days before state elections in Baden Wuerttemberg, so Merkel cynically said her party is now against nuclear power, to try to save its chances in that election (and it didn't work, the Greens won a lot).
- indigo945 8y ago
  The state elections absolutely played a part in it, but there were indeed heavy protests too. See for example (article in German): https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article12970772/Hunderttausende-demonstrieren-gegen-Atomkraft.html https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article12970772/Hund...
- majewsky 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Tomte 8y ago

Coal is available. There are coal deposits in Germany. We don't have much else in terms of natural resources. So while coal absolutely must be phased out, it's surely not "absurd" that Germany historically relied on coal.