11 ms·

Capitalism has, not globalization. There are still places trying socialism, and learning it doesn't raise people out of poverty, but creates more of it.

microdrum 8y ago
Lots of Chinese apparatchiks on here. Let me say it again so that I can be nicely downvoted: Communism is the problem. It needs to end.
- twblalock 8y ago
  > Lots of Chinese apparatchiks on here. It's possible for people to disagree with you without being employed by the Chinese government.
  - sparkie 8y ago
    Yes, but it's also well-known that wumao exist. If you assume that communism is a stupid idea (which you should), then you probably assume that people posting pro-communist ideas (or dismissing pro-capitalist ideas), must either be stupid, or wumao. Most Chinese people think Communism is a stupid idea too.
    - zozbot123 8y ago
      Many Western folks do support communism unfortunately. The people who are actually within living memory of a communist state know better (and yes this includes the Chinese - the "socialism with Chinese characteristics" of today is something different which expressly disclaims the idea of communism being directly achievable via central planning alone). It's not stupidity, it's wishful thinking. To be sure, a very foolish sort of wishful thinking, which betrays deep ignorance about how the real world works -- but one that's often nonetheless found in association with skin-deep intellectualism and faux-"smarts".
- benj111 8y ago
  If it is Communism, then presumably it started in the 1930s, got worse post war, then got better at the end of the 1980s? I'm not sure how the 'problem' manifests, but it doesn't seem to line up with globalisation.
- dang 8y ago
  Vacuous agitation, especially ideological or nationalistic, is not welcome on Hacker News. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and post either much higher-quality comments or no comments. It's particularly against the site guidelines to insinuate astroturfing or shillage without evidence. "Lots of Chinese apparatchiks on here" is as absurd as it as lame, and if you post like that again we will ban you.
  - microdrum 8y ago
    Dang, I am sorry but your statement that my post was conclusory is unsupportable. You have misunderstood the term "apparatchik" both historically and in predominant modern usage. There was a simple low-single-digits wave of downvotes for every comment in this thread expressing a point of view sympathetic to the end of globalization that made specific reference to the PRC. In a more general sense, your job is about to get much harder. Your moderation standards should not suggest an underlying judgment on your part that we in technology are a global community of friends. Many of us have friends in prison in China. And China is not our friend. I think the radical liberals who created and maintained the internet all these decades would be ashamed to observe that one of the top message boards for coders is moderated so as to equalize the belief system that created the internet and the belief system that intends to destroy it or cleave it.
kiba 8y ago
It's not an either or proposition?
- sparkie 8y ago
  It's like mixing an elixir with red wine. You drink it and it cures you, and you then claim red wine has cured you, rather than the elixir.
claudiawerner 8y ago
Which places are those? What definition of socialism are you using?
- sparkie 8y ago
  Venezuela, Cuba, Mauritania, Laos, North Korea, to name a few. China is communist in name only. It's a capitalist economy which has enabled them to grow economically. Similarly with Vietnam, they're still recovering from the effects of communism, but it hasn't gone entirely. Obviously, there is a spectrum, because some socialist policies exist everywhere. The point where socialism becomes anti-capitalism is where things start turn sour quite quickly.
- dang 8y ago
  I really appreciate that your current account has become far more civil in its postings to HN, but as far as I can tell it's still a single-purpose account that is interested only in discussing Marxist ideology (broadly construed). That's still not a legitimate use of Hacker News. Both the single-purpose part and the ideology part are too predictable to fit comfortably with intellectual curiosity, the main value of this site.
  - claudiawerner 8y ago
    I understand the concern, I'll post less about that from now on. I mean it!
    - amaccuish 8y ago
      I always find your comments interesting :(
benj111 8y ago
No nation is 100% capitalist. Even in the US the postal service is state owned. There are all sorts of regs around phone networks and health insurance that aren't capitalist in nature. There's a wide spectrum in between the 2 extremes. You're right pure socialism doesn't work, neither does pure capitalism. Most of Europe exists quite happily further along the spectrum towards socialism, than for example the US.
- sparkie 8y ago
  Many of those kinds of monopolies are not natural but enforced by violence (or threat of). In many of those cases (if not all), a free-market would produce cheaper, better and faster services. Being government owned or government granted monopolies makes them inefficient and mostly unaccountable to anybody, because they don't have to operate like a regular company which would otherwise provide services - that is, if they don't live up to expectations they get replaced by the competition. Often government monopolies are the worst elements of socialism and crony capitalism combined. They enrich an oligarchy of elites who in turn, bribe politicians to put more business in their direction.
  - benj111 8y ago
    "Many of those kinds of monopolies are not natural but enforced by violence" example?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
dang 8y ago
Please keep generic ideological talking points away from HN. They're predictable, therefore tedious, therefore off topic here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

microdrum 8y ago

Lots of Chinese apparatchiks on here. Let me say it again so that I can be nicely downvoted: Communism is the problem. It needs to end.

twblalock 8y ago
> Lots of Chinese apparatchiks on here. It's possible for people to disagree with you without being employed by the Chinese government.
- sparkie 8y ago
  Yes, but it's also well-known that wumao exist. If you assume that communism is a stupid idea (which you should), then you probably assume that people posting pro-communist ideas (or dismissing pro-capitalist ideas), must either be stupid, or wumao. Most Chinese people think Communism is a stupid idea too.
  - zozbot123 8y ago
    Many Western folks do support communism unfortunately. The people who are actually within living memory of a communist state know better (and yes this includes the Chinese - the "socialism with Chinese characteristics" of today is something different which expressly disclaims the idea of communism being directly achievable via central planning alone). It's not stupidity, it's wishful thinking. To be sure, a very foolish sort of wishful thinking, which betrays deep ignorance about how the real world works -- but one that's often nonetheless found in association with skin-deep intellectualism and faux-"smarts".
benj111 8y ago
If it is Communism, then presumably it started in the 1930s, got worse post war, then got better at the end of the 1980s? I'm not sure how the 'problem' manifests, but it doesn't seem to line up with globalisation.
dang 8y ago
Vacuous agitation, especially ideological or nationalistic, is not welcome on Hacker News. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and post either much higher-quality comments or no comments. It's particularly against the site guidelines to insinuate astroturfing or shillage without evidence. "Lots of Chinese apparatchiks on here" is as absurd as it as lame, and if you post like that again we will ban you.
- microdrum 8y ago
  Dang, I am sorry but your statement that my post was conclusory is unsupportable. You have misunderstood the term "apparatchik" both historically and in predominant modern usage. There was a simple low-single-digits wave of downvotes for every comment in this thread expressing a point of view sympathetic to the end of globalization that made specific reference to the PRC. In a more general sense, your job is about to get much harder. Your moderation standards should not suggest an underlying judgment on your part that we in technology are a global community of friends. Many of us have friends in prison in China. And China is not our friend. I think the radical liberals who created and maintained the internet all these decades would be ashamed to observe that one of the top message boards for coders is moderated so as to equalize the belief system that created the internet and the belief system that intends to destroy it or cleave it.

kiba 8y ago

It's not an either or proposition?

sparkie 8y ago
It's like mixing an elixir with red wine. You drink it and it cures you, and you then claim red wine has cured you, rather than the elixir.

claudiawerner 8y ago

Which places are those? What definition of socialism are you using?

sparkie 8y ago
Venezuela, Cuba, Mauritania, Laos, North Korea, to name a few. China is communist in name only. It's a capitalist economy which has enabled them to grow economically. Similarly with Vietnam, they're still recovering from the effects of communism, but it hasn't gone entirely. Obviously, there is a spectrum, because some socialist policies exist everywhere. The point where socialism becomes anti-capitalism is where things start turn sour quite quickly.
dang 8y ago
I really appreciate that your current account has become far more civil in its postings to HN, but as far as I can tell it's still a single-purpose account that is interested only in discussing Marxist ideology (broadly construed). That's still not a legitimate use of Hacker News. Both the single-purpose part and the ideology part are too predictable to fit comfortably with intellectual curiosity, the main value of this site.
- claudiawerner 8y ago
  I understand the concern, I'll post less about that from now on. I mean it!
  - amaccuish 8y ago
    I always find your comments interesting :(

benj111 8y ago

No nation is 100% capitalist. Even in the US the postal service is state owned. There are all sorts of regs around phone networks and health insurance that aren't capitalist in nature. There's a wide spectrum in between the 2 extremes. You're right pure socialism doesn't work, neither does pure capitalism. Most of Europe exists quite happily further along the spectrum towards socialism, than for example the US.

sparkie 8y ago
Many of those kinds of monopolies are not natural but enforced by violence (or threat of). In many of those cases (if not all), a free-market would produce cheaper, better and faster services. Being government owned or government granted monopolies makes them inefficient and mostly unaccountable to anybody, because they don't have to operate like a regular company which would otherwise provide services - that is, if they don't live up to expectations they get replaced by the competition. Often government monopolies are the worst elements of socialism and crony capitalism combined. They enrich an oligarchy of elites who in turn, bribe politicians to put more business in their direction.
- benj111 8y ago
  "Many of those kinds of monopolies are not natural but enforced by violence" example?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

dang 8y ago

Please keep generic ideological talking points away from HN. They're predictable, therefore tedious, therefore off topic here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html