3 ms·

This just runs full circle back to the LXC project which Docker 'forked' without attribution in 2013. Run unprivileged , runs daemon less, support layers, advan

by throw2016 8y ago

This just runs full circle back to the LXC project which Docker 'forked' without attribution in 2013. Run unprivileged , runs daemon less, support layers, advanced networking and more important a standard OS environment. The whole community around containers is not about the technology or understanding how to use them efficiently but who is marketing it and how many layers of complexity and buzzwords can be added on top. A bash script to build containers thus becomes 'declarative' and running a copy of a container becomes 'immutable'. A non standard OS environment, single process environments, the uncontrolled use of layers, ephemeral storage all add dubious layers of complexity to containers for questionable benefit and increase management overhead and fragility at the base of the your stack. Now 5 years later its back to LXC but 'reinvented' by Redhat. So we get another round of hype to reveal the inadequacies that should have been known 5 years ago but throwing no more light on the core issues lest users get wind its just the LXC project in new clothes.

orf 8y ago
The the overwhelming success of Docker (released 2013) over LXC (released 2008) is a great counterpoint to your theory that "we've just come full circle and have learned nothing". Clearly we have, and clearly Docker solved a use case that LXC was in no way solving. So no, we are not "back to LXC", we are two generations ahead of LXC.
- throw2016 8y ago
  Two generations ahead of LXC in which way? There has been no such thing. No point making blanket statements without substantiating them which is exactly what ails the container discussion, hype driven statements with no technical content perpetuating the cycle of misinformation. All the improvements in containers are happening in the kernel, for instance the long awaited support for cgroup namespaces. Improvements in layers will happen in the overlayfs project with better compatibility for filesystems including possible support for NFS. All this work is happening outside the spotlight while userland runs away with the hype and credit.
  - orf 8y ago
    Great news about the kernel! I take it you're purposefully ignoring the improvements to the tooling (docker machine, docker for mac, docker on windows), the ecosystem (docker hub, docker security stuff), the Docker format itself, docker-compose, etc etc etc. None of this matters? It's just the "user land running away with hype and credit", right? Not because all those actually solved an issue for developers, rather than being a random kernel subsystem that you could use if you knew the arcane incantations to summon it, and that only worked on Linux.
    - throw2016 8y ago
      The problem here is you are familiar with Docker but not LXC which has suffered serious misinformation from the Docker ecosystem. A little bit of research will show it's far simpler to use and manage than Docker [1], and because it offers a standard OS environment with support for standard networking, daemons, logging, no enforced use of layers or ephemeral storage it doesn't need an app to hang around and manage its networking and other subsystems. It offers seamless migration of workloads from VMs, is compatible with the ecosystem of apps and orchestration systems without the need for any special daemon handling, network or storage management that comes from a custom environment, thus simplifying container use and management. [1] https://www.flockport.com/guides/say-yes-to-containers https://www.flockport.com/guides/say-yes-to-containers
      - orf 8y ago
        Awesome! With it's 5+ year head start no doubt it's managed to capture developer mindshare like few other technologies have before it, revolutionizing development and deployment! Wait, what's that? It doesn't work on Mac or Windows? It didn't have a even half-decent website until 2015? It doesn't have anything like a dockerfile that you can version control? Or anything to compose services together from a simple yaml file? Damn. I guess it turns out people don't really care about the technical purity of a solution, they care about something that solves their issues. Better luck next time.
thinkmassive 8y ago
Docker did more to hinder my understanding of containers than the advantages I gained from casually using it for a few years. Recently I started using podman and buildah, and I read about many of the kernel enhancements over the last 2 decades that allow us to finally implement containers. Now I have a huge appreciation of them, thanks to a better understanding of the underlying concepts. LWN.net is an incredible resource for anyone interested in Linux--both history and the latest updates.
- fatherlinnux 8y ago
  LOVE to hear this! The podman team thanks you for your feedback ;-)

orf 8y ago

The the overwhelming success of Docker (released 2013) over LXC (released 2008) is a great counterpoint to your theory that "we've just come full circle and have learned nothing". Clearly we have, and clearly Docker solved a use case that LXC was in no way solving. So no, we are not "back to LXC", we are two generations ahead of LXC.

throw2016 8y ago
Two generations ahead of LXC in which way? There has been no such thing. No point making blanket statements without substantiating them which is exactly what ails the container discussion, hype driven statements with no technical content perpetuating the cycle of misinformation. All the improvements in containers are happening in the kernel, for instance the long awaited support for cgroup namespaces. Improvements in layers will happen in the overlayfs project with better compatibility for filesystems including possible support for NFS. All this work is happening outside the spotlight while userland runs away with the hype and credit.
- orf 8y ago
  Great news about the kernel! I take it you're purposefully ignoring the improvements to the tooling (docker machine, docker for mac, docker on windows), the ecosystem (docker hub, docker security stuff), the Docker format itself, docker-compose, etc etc etc. None of this matters? It's just the "user land running away with hype and credit", right? Not because all those actually solved an issue for developers, rather than being a random kernel subsystem that you could use if you knew the arcane incantations to summon it, and that only worked on Linux.
  - throw2016 8y ago
    The problem here is you are familiar with Docker but not LXC which has suffered serious misinformation from the Docker ecosystem. A little bit of research will show it's far simpler to use and manage than Docker [1], and because it offers a standard OS environment with support for standard networking, daemons, logging, no enforced use of layers or ephemeral storage it doesn't need an app to hang around and manage its networking and other subsystems. It offers seamless migration of workloads from VMs, is compatible with the ecosystem of apps and orchestration systems without the need for any special daemon handling, network or storage management that comes from a custom environment, thus simplifying container use and management. [1] https://www.flockport.com/guides/say-yes-to-containers https://www.flockport.com/guides/say-yes-to-containers
    - orf 8y ago
      Awesome! With it's 5+ year head start no doubt it's managed to capture developer mindshare like few other technologies have before it, revolutionizing development and deployment! Wait, what's that? It doesn't work on Mac or Windows? It didn't have a even half-decent website until 2015? It doesn't have anything like a dockerfile that you can version control? Or anything to compose services together from a simple yaml file? Damn. I guess it turns out people don't really care about the technical purity of a solution, they care about something that solves their issues. Better luck next time.

thinkmassive 8y ago

Docker did more to hinder my understanding of containers than the advantages I gained from casually using it for a few years. Recently I started using podman and buildah, and I read about many of the kernel enhancements over the last 2 decades that allow us to finally implement containers. Now I have a huge appreciation of them, thanks to a better understanding of the underlying concepts. LWN.net is an incredible resource for anyone interested in Linux--both history and the latest updates.

fatherlinnux 8y ago
LOVE to hear this! The podman team thanks you for your feedback ;-)