5 ms·

As far as I know, while Chinese students are way more than India students in USA, Indian H1B holders are about 4~5 times more than Chinese. In short, the vast m

by ausjke 8y ago

As far as I know, while Chinese students are way more than India students in USA, Indian H1B holders are about 4~5 times more than Chinese. In short, the vast majority(about 50+%) H1Bs are taken by India, Chinese is about 10%. Indians abuses the system severely by setting up phony staffing companies and do fake multiple filings on h1b application, etc. There is a saying, that if an Indian becomes a manager, soon all his department becomes Indians, which really stands out among all other races. I will not be surprised someday they will be sued for not following equal job rights.

jhwang5 8y ago
This. I have observed this at FAANG as well as wouldn't be surprised if that's what happened at Oracle. Would explain the data anyways.
namelezz 8y ago
> if an Indian becomes a manager, soon all his department becomes Indians It can get worse. "Woman was told she’d be fired if she didn’t marry boss’s Indian relative so he could immigrate here" - [0] 0 - https://www.surreynowleader.com/news/judge-annuls-hairdressers-sham-marriage/ https://www.surreynowleader.com/news/judge-annuls-hairdresse...
- screye 8y ago
  Just saying, this isn't quite relevant to CS. This was a hairdresser with a business. So, the Indian person in charge was most likely not well educated. It is disingenuous to extrapolate that to H1Bs. Secondly, this happened in Canada where Sikh/Punjabi immigration was not skill based, but rather fueled by mostly uneducated people looking for a better life. This is completely in contrast to the H1B which is a skill based employment visa.
  - namelezz 8y ago
    > Indian person in charge was most likely not well educated Here are some educated managers in US tech companies - [0] 0 - https://www.teamblind.com/article/Do-all-Indian-managers-suck-JJsmfgzz https://www.teamblind.com/article/Do-all-Indian-managers-suc...
    - screye 8y ago
      I haven't seen Blind take on overall positive stance on anyone ever. The complete anonymity of every poster invites hate, this likes of which I have only seen on 4chan. That being said, there are a decent number of accounts which go both ways. Being a manager usually takes English proficiency, so Chinese managers in western companies are not as common. Given the racial breakdown of people in software, that leaves most people with either an Indian or white manager. However, people never generalize white people culturally, because it is well understood that their color doesn't say much about how they are culturally or ideologically wired. Similarly 'south asians' as a racial group are pretty culturally and socio-economically diverse. So generalizing such a huge subgroup is not very helpful. People differ in key ideologies of how to go about things as you cross state, religious, developmental lines in south Asia. That being said, I can hypothesize why certain Indians may display traits that are considered undesirable among managers. But that write up must wait for another day.
petilon 8y ago
English language proficiency is the reason Indians are doing better than Chinese.
screye 8y ago
> Indians abuses the system severely by setting up phony staffing companies and do fake multiple filings on h1b application, etc. Most Indians I know, hate this H1B abuse as much as Americans. (maybe even more. I have seen people spout some genuine hate towards it) It ruins the reputation of most Indians in Masters programs at well regarded R1 universities (most people at such programs, get proper full time roles to my knowledge) > There is a saying, that if an Indian becomes a manager, soon all his department becomes Indians, which really stands out among all other races. I will not be surprised someday they will be sued for not following equal job rights. haven't seen enough teams here to refute this claim. Hope it ain't so, but knowing Indians, I wouldn't be that surprised if some Indian managers did behave in such a manner.
- jessaustin 8y ago
  I've seen this phenomenon both in USA and in Singapore.
- cannonedhamster 8y ago
  I have seen the Indian manager phenomenon in 3 separate companies. Literally everyone other than me was Indian previously in my management and adjacent chain. All of them were financially intertwined. When one quit they all quit. I was only there because they hadn't hired me. There was not a single person that they hired that was not Indian. This is definitely a real phenomenon.
petilon 8y ago
>There is a saying, that if an Indian becomes a manager, soon all his department becomes Indians, which really stands out among all other races. That's nonsense. Indians aren't one race. Indians are multiracial themselves. There are dark-skinned Indians that are mistaken for African American, and there are light skinned Indians that are mistaken for Italian Americans. The states of India are like countries of Europe in that each state has its own language: Gujarathi, Tamil, Kannada, Bengali etc.
- jessaustin 8y ago
  How do your observations refute the original proposition? Race is a problematic concept, but that doesn't mean it can mean anything you want it to mean. If someone had made a similar observation e.g. about American managers in Europe, would an objection to the effect that "America has multiple races!" mean anything?
  - petilon 8y ago
    I corrected a factual error, but I am not refuting or supporting the rest of your claims. But I will note that you are complaining about people who you perceive to be your competitors. You inherently have diminished credibility because of that.
    - jessaustin 8y ago
      Dude who are you talking to? What claims have I made? I've just observed that your use of the word "race" is quite different than its normal meaning.
- rhizome 8y ago
  >That's nonsense. Indians aren't one race. Indians are multiracial themselves. Race doesn't exist, there is only skin color, ethnicity, haplogroups, nationality, language, subculture, etc.
slimshady94 8y ago
> As far as I know, while Chinese students are way more than India students in USA, Indian H1B holders are about 4~5 times more than Chinese Source?
- tooltalk 8y ago
  Yeah, it's about 5x for 2017: 26K vs 126K https://www.recode.net/2017/4/13/15281170/china-india-tech-h1b-visas https://www.recode.net/2017/4/13/15281170/china-india-tech-h...
vishnugupta 8y ago
> if an Indian becomes a manager, soon all his department becomes Indians This exact phenomenon plays out in India as well at a more granular level and across all job families and public/private sector companies. The more you zoom in more granular it gets. E.g., South Indian manager prefers South Indian reportees, a manager in Karnataka prefers someone from his caste, and so on. I wonder if it's an Asian specific phenomenon. Where family, regional, clans etc., affiliation trumps meritocracy. I've heard similar stories in Indonesia too where relatives or those from same islands are given preferential treatment by the bosses.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
tooltalk 8y ago
In my 20 years in IT and finance, I've always had a fair number of Indian coworkers, though mostly American-born or raised and US-educated. Some of my best buddies come from that pool. A couple of interesting points to note about my last two jobs though: the first was a small startup in NYC with ~15 employees, founded by two Americans. They had zero Indian employee! I mean there was one Indian-American guy, but he was gone as soon I joined. A lot of talented young folks, but they lost most of them and they eventually went to Canada and Eastern Europe for new blood. My second was a ERP startup also in NYC much bigger than the first and fits your narrative -- the founder was Indian-American[?], a Princeton and HBS graduate, who had made a wad load of money in outsourcing business. Most of the principles reporting directly to him were also Indians who had worked at Cognizant and Infosys previously and whose technical or management skills were ..umm.. not very good or non-existence. The company still hired mostly H1Bs straight from India and Indians graduated from well-known US universities. They hired a lot of kids with advanced degrees, but who weren't clearly from top of the crop -- for lack of better words -- or passionate about their chosen field. Some were good, but many questionable. There were also new recruits with a master in CS (from US univ) could barely write a single line of code and had to be trained to perform monkey work from clean slate.

by ausjke 8y ago

jhwang5 8y ago

This. I have observed this at FAANG as well as wouldn't be surprised if that's what happened at Oracle. Would explain the data anyways.

namelezz 8y ago

> if an Indian becomes a manager, soon all his department becomes Indians It can get worse. "Woman was told she’d be fired if she didn’t marry boss’s Indian relative so he could immigrate here" - [0] 0 - https://www.surreynowleader.com/news/judge-annuls-hairdressers-sham-marriage/ https://www.surreynowleader.com/news/judge-annuls-hairdresse...

screye 8y ago
Just saying, this isn't quite relevant to CS. This was a hairdresser with a business. So, the Indian person in charge was most likely not well educated. It is disingenuous to extrapolate that to H1Bs. Secondly, this happened in Canada where Sikh/Punjabi immigration was not skill based, but rather fueled by mostly uneducated people looking for a better life. This is completely in contrast to the H1B which is a skill based employment visa.
- namelezz 8y ago
  > Indian person in charge was most likely not well educated Here are some educated managers in US tech companies - [0] 0 - https://www.teamblind.com/article/Do-all-Indian-managers-suck-JJsmfgzz https://www.teamblind.com/article/Do-all-Indian-managers-suc...
  - screye 8y ago
    I haven't seen Blind take on overall positive stance on anyone ever. The complete anonymity of every poster invites hate, this likes of which I have only seen on 4chan. That being said, there are a decent number of accounts which go both ways. Being a manager usually takes English proficiency, so Chinese managers in western companies are not as common. Given the racial breakdown of people in software, that leaves most people with either an Indian or white manager. However, people never generalize white people culturally, because it is well understood that their color doesn't say much about how they are culturally or ideologically wired. Similarly 'south asians' as a racial group are pretty culturally and socio-economically diverse. So generalizing such a huge subgroup is not very helpful. People differ in key ideologies of how to go about things as you cross state, religious, developmental lines in south Asia. That being said, I can hypothesize why certain Indians may display traits that are considered undesirable among managers. But that write up must wait for another day.

petilon 8y ago

English language proficiency is the reason Indians are doing better than Chinese.

screye 8y ago

> Indians abuses the system severely by setting up phony staffing companies and do fake multiple filings on h1b application, etc. Most Indians I know, hate this H1B abuse as much as Americans. (maybe even more. I have seen people spout some genuine hate towards it) It ruins the reputation of most Indians in Masters programs at well regarded R1 universities (most people at such programs, get proper full time roles to my knowledge) > There is a saying, that if an Indian becomes a manager, soon all his department becomes Indians, which really stands out among all other races. I will not be surprised someday they will be sued for not following equal job rights. haven't seen enough teams here to refute this claim. Hope it ain't so, but knowing Indians, I wouldn't be that surprised if some Indian managers did behave in such a manner.

jessaustin 8y ago
I've seen this phenomenon both in USA and in Singapore.
cannonedhamster 8y ago
I have seen the Indian manager phenomenon in 3 separate companies. Literally everyone other than me was Indian previously in my management and adjacent chain. All of them were financially intertwined. When one quit they all quit. I was only there because they hadn't hired me. There was not a single person that they hired that was not Indian. This is definitely a real phenomenon.

petilon 8y ago

>There is a saying, that if an Indian becomes a manager, soon all his department becomes Indians, which really stands out among all other races. That's nonsense. Indians aren't one race. Indians are multiracial themselves. There are dark-skinned Indians that are mistaken for African American, and there are light skinned Indians that are mistaken for Italian Americans. The states of India are like countries of Europe in that each state has its own language: Gujarathi, Tamil, Kannada, Bengali etc.

jessaustin 8y ago
How do your observations refute the original proposition? Race is a problematic concept, but that doesn't mean it can mean anything you want it to mean. If someone had made a similar observation e.g. about American managers in Europe, would an objection to the effect that "America has multiple races!" mean anything?
- petilon 8y ago
  I corrected a factual error, but I am not refuting or supporting the rest of your claims. But I will note that you are complaining about people who you perceive to be your competitors. You inherently have diminished credibility because of that.
  - jessaustin 8y ago
    Dude who are you talking to? What claims have I made? I've just observed that your use of the word "race" is quite different than its normal meaning.
rhizome 8y ago
>That's nonsense. Indians aren't one race. Indians are multiracial themselves. Race doesn't exist, there is only skin color, ethnicity, haplogroups, nationality, language, subculture, etc.

slimshady94 8y ago

> As far as I know, while Chinese students are way more than India students in USA, Indian H1B holders are about 4~5 times more than Chinese Source?

tooltalk 8y ago
Yeah, it's about 5x for 2017: 26K vs 126K https://www.recode.net/2017/4/13/15281170/china-india-tech-h1b-visas https://www.recode.net/2017/4/13/15281170/china-india-tech-h...

vishnugupta 8y ago

> if an Indian becomes a manager, soon all his department becomes Indians This exact phenomenon plays out in India as well at a more granular level and across all job families and public/private sector companies. The more you zoom in more granular it gets. E.g., South Indian manager prefers South Indian reportees, a manager in Karnataka prefers someone from his caste, and so on. I wonder if it's an Asian specific phenomenon. Where family, regional, clans etc., affiliation trumps meritocracy. I've heard similar stories in Indonesia too where relatives or those from same islands are given preferential treatment by the bosses.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

tooltalk 8y ago

In my 20 years in IT and finance, I've always had a fair number of Indian coworkers, though mostly American-born or raised and US-educated. Some of my best buddies come from that pool. A couple of interesting points to note about my last two jobs though: the first was a small startup in NYC with ~15 employees, founded by two Americans. They had zero Indian employee! I mean there was one Indian-American guy, but he was gone as soon I joined. A lot of talented young folks, but they lost most of them and they eventually went to Canada and Eastern Europe for new blood. My second was a ERP startup also in NYC much bigger than the first and fits your narrative -- the founder was Indian-American[?], a Princeton and HBS graduate, who had made a wad load of money in outsourcing business. Most of the principles reporting directly to him were also Indians who had worked at Cognizant and Infosys previously and whose technical or management skills were ..umm.. not very good or non-existence. The company still hired mostly H1Bs straight from India and Indians graduated from well-known US universities. They hired a lot of kids with advanced degrees, but who weren't clearly from top of the crop -- for lack of better words -- or passionate about their chosen field. Some were good, but many questionable. There were also new recruits with a master in CS (from US univ) could barely write a single line of code and had to be trained to perform monkey work from clean slate.