4 ms·

Fecal microbiota transplants are more pseudoscience than science. Research should be done to identify the most relevant microbes within fecal transplants, which

Fecal microbiota transplants are more pseudoscience than science. Research should be done to identify the most relevant microbes within fecal transplants, which could then be isolated and manufactured via industrial fermentation; such standardized products would be more scalable, would reduce the risk of infections from unwanted microbes, and would improve the scientific study of the approach, since the same substance would be administered each time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_microbiota_transplant#Research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_microbiota_transplant#Re... This would remove many unnecessary and correlated variables associated with feces transfer, especially when it is being transferred "with the liquid injected through people's noses"! This could benefit from either a medical ethics review or an editorial review of the article.

tom_ 8y ago
Why not send them a note? I'm sure they'll be grateful for your input - sounds like it could save them a lot of time.
- potiuper 8y ago
  I do not appreciate the sarcasm.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- drewcon 8y ago
  This made me laugh.
djaychela 8y ago
I think they're putting it in through a tube that's inserted through the nose, not actually into the nose.
- potiuper 8y ago
  Nasojejunal intubation would make more sense than how the article describes the clinic trial. Unfortunately, I am not able to find any documentation regarding the study, which appears to be named "Faecal microbiota transplantation in the management of obesity and type two diabetes mellitus"
  - wjn0 8y ago
    The trial is ongoing [1], so it's not surprising you can't find any information on it. [1] http://www.isrctn.com/ISRCTN30359027 http://www.isrctn.com/ISRCTN30359027
zilian 8y ago
Your comment is hardly understandable, but feces transplant are not pseudoscience and a hope for many autoimmune disease sufferers. I don t know anything about this specific trial though.
gexla 8y ago
There's not a worse place you could put feces than directly into the nose. It smells bad enough when it's not right in your nose. How else are they going to get feces into your gut? Sprinkle it in your sandwich? I don't see where you're going with this. Did you get past the first paragraph in the article? Research is early in this field, but if it seems to help, then that's a positive direction. I feel it's much safer research than attempting to solve these problems with medication and surgery.
nanofortnight 8y ago
> into the nose It's not going into the nose, it's going into the jejunum (the intestines) via a nasojejunal tube, which is placed up your nose.
- scoot 8y ago
  They still have to withdraw the tube though...
  - jessriedel 8y ago
    Ha. I wonder if they flush it with a little water before withdrawing?
    - scoot 8y ago
      Ho do you flush the outside?
neuroticfish 8y ago
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4749851/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4749851/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5864716/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5864716/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491681/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491681/ https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/gastroenterology_hepatology/clinical_services/advanced_endoscopy/fecal_transplantation.html https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/gastroenterology_hepatology/...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
wjn0 8y ago
So, let me make sure I have this right: 1. Fecal transplants are pseudoscience, because we don't know if they work. 2. We should assume they work, and identify specific microbes within them that are relevant or dangerous. That's contradictory. Further, without data from examining #1, #2 is almost impossible - there are at least 1,000 species in our gut at all times. The only identification process I know of that could be reasonably affordable is 16S RNA sequencing, which is still expensive and would be nearly impossible to do properly on the 0.5 - 1.0 kg sample of gut bacteria (yes, that's the weight of just bacteria) from the average human. Not to mention that evidence suggests that gut bacteria act in concert, that is, we'd have to examine combinatorially many combinations of these 1,000+ species to get any real data. This is just nonsense.
SubiculumCode 8y ago
I get the issue with standardization of your independent variables, but do consider that trying to identify the "most relevant microbes" might not be as fruitful as you think. A lot of the factors may relate to community level effects, emerging from interaction between a multitude of species.

tom_ 8y ago

Why not send them a note? I'm sure they'll be grateful for your input - sounds like it could save them a lot of time.

potiuper 8y ago
I do not appreciate the sarcasm.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
drewcon 8y ago
This made me laugh.

djaychela 8y ago

I think they're putting it in through a tube that's inserted through the nose, not actually into the nose.

potiuper 8y ago
Nasojejunal intubation would make more sense than how the article describes the clinic trial. Unfortunately, I am not able to find any documentation regarding the study, which appears to be named "Faecal microbiota transplantation in the management of obesity and type two diabetes mellitus"
- wjn0 8y ago
  The trial is ongoing [1], so it's not surprising you can't find any information on it. [1] http://www.isrctn.com/ISRCTN30359027 http://www.isrctn.com/ISRCTN30359027

zilian 8y ago

Your comment is hardly understandable, but feces transplant are not pseudoscience and a hope for many autoimmune disease sufferers. I don t know anything about this specific trial though.

gexla 8y ago

There's not a worse place you could put feces than directly into the nose. It smells bad enough when it's not right in your nose. How else are they going to get feces into your gut? Sprinkle it in your sandwich? I don't see where you're going with this. Did you get past the first paragraph in the article? Research is early in this field, but if it seems to help, then that's a positive direction. I feel it's much safer research than attempting to solve these problems with medication and surgery.

nanofortnight 8y ago

> into the nose It's not going into the nose, it's going into the jejunum (the intestines) via a nasojejunal tube, which is placed up your nose.

scoot 8y ago
They still have to withdraw the tube though...
- jessriedel 8y ago
  Ha. I wonder if they flush it with a little water before withdrawing?
  - scoot 8y ago
    Ho do you flush the outside?

neuroticfish 8y ago

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4749851/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4749851/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5864716/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5864716/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491681/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491681/ https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/gastroenterology_hepatology/clinical_services/advanced_endoscopy/fecal_transplantation.html https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/gastroenterology_hepatology/...

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

wjn0 8y ago

So, let me make sure I have this right: 1. Fecal transplants are pseudoscience, because we don't know if they work. 2. We should assume they work, and identify specific microbes within them that are relevant or dangerous. That's contradictory. Further, without data from examining #1, #2 is almost impossible - there are at least 1,000 species in our gut at all times. The only identification process I know of that could be reasonably affordable is 16S RNA sequencing, which is still expensive and would be nearly impossible to do properly on the 0.5 - 1.0 kg sample of gut bacteria (yes, that's the weight of just bacteria) from the average human. Not to mention that evidence suggests that gut bacteria act in concert, that is, we'd have to examine combinatorially many combinations of these 1,000+ species to get any real data. This is just nonsense.

SubiculumCode 8y ago

I get the issue with standardization of your independent variables, but do consider that trying to identify the "most relevant microbes" might not be as fruitful as you think. A lot of the factors may relate to community level effects, emerging from interaction between a multitude of species.