9 ms·

The solution is to work for a smaller company where your output is directly tied to the market success of the entire organisation, and where its small enough th

The solution is to work for a smaller company where your output is directly tied to the market success of the entire organisation, and where its small enough that the CEO/Founder can directly appreciate your efforts. Just make sure that you have a solid bonus/promotion structure pre-agreed and you're good to go. Bonus is that these kind of jobs are often located outside of Silicon Valley, so your living costs will be much lower.

hoaw 8y ago
> Just make sure that you have a solid bonus/promotion structure pre-agreed and you're good to go. That is a pretty big "just". Bonuses aren't common everywhere, and unfortunately it seems like management being directly involved in the company can also go the other way. Since they have a larger incentive to short change you on salary as it is their own bottom line. That said I think looking at the promotion structure is something underappreciated and should really be part of these "how to be successful" post rather than maxing out you credit card (or whatever).
VRay 8y ago
You're saying to walk away from $250k+ at Google so you can pull in 120 at a failed startup? If someone doesn't have the weaseling skills to weasel up the ladder at Google, they're going to be horribly exploited at a smaller company too
- hoaw 8y ago
  No, from my experience what is meant is to join a small and medium-sized enterprise and become a part of their success. $200k is a lot in salary, but it isn't that much for a company as such if they sell or provide high value products or services.
- mmmBacon 8y ago
  This is false. I’ve been at 4 different startups and the ones I made myself key to market success were way better than working in these soul crushing meat grinders like Goog or FB. There’s more to life than TC.
  - osrec 8y ago
    What does TC stand for?
    - cmrx64 8y ago
      total compensation
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - esrauch 8y ago
      Total compensation
  - spookthesunset 8y ago
    > There’s more to life than TC. Easy to say but those "soul crushing meat grinders" can pay literally hundreds of thousands more in total annual comp than some dinky startup.
  - sanderjd 8y ago
    Just for what it's worth, my experience is the opposite; I've found Google less of a meat grinder and less soul crushing than startups. But I think it's possible that a lot depends on where - both in the country and in the org chart - you're located.
- geodel 8y ago
  So Google is bad for promotion and startups too are bad. I am not sure what other options people are looking to suggest.
  - danaris 8y ago
    ...the obvious answer to that would be “non-Google companies that are also not startups.” Y’know, there is a whole world of companies out there that don’t depend on venture capital to survive...
  - uuwp 8y ago
    The other option is to realize that in the world of people, your people skills can be even more valuable than your technical skills. I think that L5 is the tipping point where people skills start to dominate.
    - gaius 8y ago
      Technical skills are the skills to make machines do whatever you want, they get no say in the matter. People skills are the skills to make people do whatever you want. You can see why many are reluctant to get involved in that.
- m0zg 8y ago
  Some smaller companies (including startups) pay really well, too. And I agree with the poster below, there's more to life than total comp.
  - uuwp 8y ago
    I don't get this statement. Google doesn't force anyone to work overnight. It doesn't force you to work at all, to be honest. Some people can spend a workday skiing and then arrive at 6 pm for dinner. TC is 400K. And once you're bored or feel undercompensated, you just go to FB, Netflix or Snapchat and get a 30-50% pay rise.
    - m0zg 8y ago
      But you're an inconsequential cog, and in order to get a decent bonus and _any_ RSU refresh at all (which is the majority of that 400K btw) you have to jump through insane hoops and shave yaks all day. At some point it feels like Dostoevsky's labor camp description: you dig a hole and then you fill it back up. Except this is a very comfy labor camp, with 3 meals a day, and you can leave if you want to. But some of us like to actually make things, and have a sense of purpose, and other things higher up on the Maslow's pyramid of needs. For them Google of 2019 is mostly not a good place, unless they end up on teams (and in positions on those teams) where they can do work that's meaningful to them, rather than copy proto buffers in some soon-to-be deprecated backend. Meaningful work is scarce there, and has been for at least the last decade, and a lot of people are competing for it.
      - spookthesunset 8y ago
        > But you're an inconsequential cog In the grand scheme of things everybody is an inconsequential cog. You, me and everybody you know are average people who will grind away at whatever thing we happen do. You aren't gonna change the world. I'm not gonna change the world. Accept this and move on. > Meaningful work is scarce there "Meaningful work" is in the eye of the beholder. Learning to find joy in whatever task you are working on is an important skill to learn. Being a very highly paid "inconsequential cog" at a mega-corp and working below market at some dinky startup can be the difference between actually affording to buy a house. It can mean you get to retire years earlier than you would have otherwise. It can mean putting your kids through a top notch education program. It buys you a lot of things.

hoaw 8y ago

> Just make sure that you have a solid bonus/promotion structure pre-agreed and you're good to go. That is a pretty big "just". Bonuses aren't common everywhere, and unfortunately it seems like management being directly involved in the company can also go the other way. Since they have a larger incentive to short change you on salary as it is their own bottom line. That said I think looking at the promotion structure is something underappreciated and should really be part of these "how to be successful" post rather than maxing out you credit card (or whatever).

VRay 8y ago

You're saying to walk away from $250k+ at Google so you can pull in 120 at a failed startup? If someone doesn't have the weaseling skills to weasel up the ladder at Google, they're going to be horribly exploited at a smaller company too

hoaw 8y ago
No, from my experience what is meant is to join a small and medium-sized enterprise and become a part of their success. $200k is a lot in salary, but it isn't that much for a company as such if they sell or provide high value products or services.
mmmBacon 8y ago
This is false. I’ve been at 4 different startups and the ones I made myself key to market success were way better than working in these soul crushing meat grinders like Goog or FB. There’s more to life than TC.
- osrec 8y ago
  What does TC stand for?
  - cmrx64 8y ago
    total compensation
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - esrauch 8y ago
    Total compensation
- spookthesunset 8y ago
  > There’s more to life than TC. Easy to say but those "soul crushing meat grinders" can pay literally hundreds of thousands more in total annual comp than some dinky startup.
- sanderjd 8y ago
  Just for what it's worth, my experience is the opposite; I've found Google less of a meat grinder and less soul crushing than startups. But I think it's possible that a lot depends on where - both in the country and in the org chart - you're located.
geodel 8y ago
So Google is bad for promotion and startups too are bad. I am not sure what other options people are looking to suggest.
- danaris 8y ago
  ...the obvious answer to that would be “non-Google companies that are also not startups.” Y’know, there is a whole world of companies out there that don’t depend on venture capital to survive...
- uuwp 8y ago
  The other option is to realize that in the world of people, your people skills can be even more valuable than your technical skills. I think that L5 is the tipping point where people skills start to dominate.
  - gaius 8y ago
    Technical skills are the skills to make machines do whatever you want, they get no say in the matter. People skills are the skills to make people do whatever you want. You can see why many are reluctant to get involved in that.
m0zg 8y ago
Some smaller companies (including startups) pay really well, too. And I agree with the poster below, there's more to life than total comp.
- uuwp 8y ago
  I don't get this statement. Google doesn't force anyone to work overnight. It doesn't force you to work at all, to be honest. Some people can spend a workday skiing and then arrive at 6 pm for dinner. TC is 400K. And once you're bored or feel undercompensated, you just go to FB, Netflix or Snapchat and get a 30-50% pay rise.
  - m0zg 8y ago
    But you're an inconsequential cog, and in order to get a decent bonus and _any_ RSU refresh at all (which is the majority of that 400K btw) you have to jump through insane hoops and shave yaks all day. At some point it feels like Dostoevsky's labor camp description: you dig a hole and then you fill it back up. Except this is a very comfy labor camp, with 3 meals a day, and you can leave if you want to. But some of us like to actually make things, and have a sense of purpose, and other things higher up on the Maslow's pyramid of needs. For them Google of 2019 is mostly not a good place, unless they end up on teams (and in positions on those teams) where they can do work that's meaningful to them, rather than copy proto buffers in some soon-to-be deprecated backend. Meaningful work is scarce there, and has been for at least the last decade, and a lot of people are competing for it.
    - spookthesunset 8y ago
      > But you're an inconsequential cog In the grand scheme of things everybody is an inconsequential cog. You, me and everybody you know are average people who will grind away at whatever thing we happen do. You aren't gonna change the world. I'm not gonna change the world. Accept this and move on. > Meaningful work is scarce there "Meaningful work" is in the eye of the beholder. Learning to find joy in whatever task you are working on is an important skill to learn. Being a very highly paid "inconsequential cog" at a mega-corp and working below market at some dinky startup can be the difference between actually affording to buy a house. It can mean you get to retire years earlier than you would have otherwise. It can mean putting your kids through a top notch education program. It buys you a lot of things.