7 ms·

Concise articulation, and valuable. My comment is that this is happy-path advice. Corporate culture has changed to where instead of handling conflict according

Concise articulation, and valuable. My comment is that this is happy-path advice. Corporate culture has changed to where instead of handling conflict according to principle (e.g. Harvard negotiation project, getting to yes, principled negotiations etc), today people are trained to out-passive each other, and marshal political campaigns to isolate opposition. (salience, political survival, working the ref, etc.) The moment you acknowledge that the person you are dealing with is being disingenuous and manipulative is the moment you have lost. That you can see the mechanism critically signals you do not have power, and that you cannot be trusted to "keep the ball in the air." The typical response to this is, "that's black and white thinking, people have different perspectives and views, which are valuable and legitimate." While that is generally true, different perspectives aren't the problem, nor are they new. It's a minority of people who exploit the agreeableness and civility of others with a small toolkit of negative plays, and who cluster in high-status organizations because they are motivated by proximity to power, but without responsibility itself. The OP articulates valuable patterns for navigating flat organizations in calm seas. A set of patterns that describe when the knives are out would be a helpful follow up.

PaulHoule 8y ago
Sometimes when the "knives are out" you can't win or why would you want to?
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  at least you should try not to lose in that situation
- james_s_tayler 8y ago
  Well you at least don't want to bring a pillow to a knife fight.
  - falcor84 8y ago
    Actually, wouldn't a pillow be a reasonably effective way to deflect a knife?
    - james_s_tayler 8y ago
      I usually think of the metaphor in terms of bringing a knife to a pillow fight as a play on "that's like bringing a knife to a gun fight" in which case my formulation is about having an innocent bit of fun and then someone going way overboard and doing something absolutely inappropriate. I sort of picture it in my head like everyone is having fun and then someone whips out a knife and then everyone starts to get very terrified. I never really considered how a pillow would actually hold up against a knife in a fight. My money would still be on the knife, but I take your point.
- lazyasciiart 8y ago
  Maybe you just don't want to get stabbed in the back before you get a new job.
- yeahitslikethat 8y ago
  We, the bold and productive, have to stand up to that kind of stuff. Else they by attrition.
- sosilkj 8y ago
  "why would you want to" you want to if you have a mortgage payment each month, or there are people in your life who depend on you for food and clothing.
dpweb 8y ago
Usually the technologist is not even in the room with the business leaders. Your manager or their manager is. You want to be (and be seen as) valuable. You have to depend on your manager to vouch for you. If you have a complete asshole political or whatever manager, you must find another job. Don’t bother swimming against the tide. But its a whole other language that business leaders speak. Different etiquette. At least in F50 companies it may be better in smaller tech companies. If you’re in the room you have to speak their language, not how you would talk w a group of technologists. You have to learn new languages and immersion is good if you can get into enough high level meetings. But, always complete self-confidence, decisiveness, problem solving. If people get aggressive, give it back. Even the CEO. Not disrespectful. Being tough without sounding like an asshole is also a skill. Even just the tone of your voice, so you have to have self control of your emotions. Good to have a healthy retirement account too you won’t be subconsciously so worried about losing your job.
- yeahitslikethat 8y ago
  Not caring if they fire you but wanting to stay and make life better for your coworkers everyday is the place to be if you can find it.
- erikb 8y ago
  Yes, always make sure to follow all the rules you've read in a book! Then you will be save and feel well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kfgXoclrjk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kfgXoclrjk
yeahitslikethat 8y ago
You're higher up the food chain than the audience of that article. Just keep doing your job better than they do their job and vent to allies behind closed doors. There's a guy on our team who does #1 one in the article ALL the time. NNP who slows the team by 25% probably. No one knows how to make him stop. Everyone is politely tapping on his fishbowl and it hasn't worked yet for like months.
- hoorayimhelping 8y ago
  >No one knows how to make him stop. Everyone is politely tapping on his fishbowl and it hasn't worked yet for like months. I was this employee once, but in a slightly different situation. I had a bad habit of responding to things I didn't understand in a way that almost always put people on the defensive. People didn't want to work or interact with me and politely and subtly trying to get me to stop didn't work. This was a problem across jobs, and was a huge blind spot for me. It took a very direct and blunt conversation from my new manager where he flat out told me when I behave this way, I come off like a complete prick and no one wants to work with me for me to even realize what I was doing. It crushed me for a few days, but after some reflection, I realized I was crushed because it was true. This was nearly 7 years ago, and I'll always love and appreciate my manager for having that hard conversation with me. His having the courage to be blunt with me has made me an immeasurably better person. My advice is find someone who is blunt or has the courage to have that hard conversation (my boss was English, and I think being blunt and direct was very natural for him, but he's also very courageous) and tell this person that their behavior is wasting a lot of people's time, and people are starting to get annoyed. Remind them that it's not a big deal now but it can become a big deal, and that in the end, people will remember the improvement and value that, not the original problem. I don't remember the pain of being crushed, I remember my appreciation for my manager who had this hard conversation with me when no one else in the past 3 years would.
  - peteradio 8y ago
    I'm confused. What exactly were you doing?
- sosilkj 8y ago
drharby 8y ago
You just described working in a tech org of a major IB
- motohagiography 8y ago
  Indeed, turns out I may also have described "gaslighting," https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/here-there-and-everywhere/201701/11-warning-signs-gaslighting https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/here-there-and-every... , which is perhaps why I sound so grouchy. Like a startup whose leadership in effect says, "we just raised way too much money and have no path to market fit, let's just gaslight the talent until they attrition out and we can blame them for the time lost, while hopefully our competitors will establish a market where then the board can find a greater fool to buy us before we have to raise another round." Please, help me be wrong. :)
Arubis 8y ago
I’d recommend the works of Venkatesh Rao: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-... https://www.ribbonfarm.com/be-slightly-evil/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/be-slightly-evil/
- andyidsinga 8y ago
  absolutely this! Gervais principle is a very valuable (and entertaining) way to decode what is going on in the organization. The one bit of advice I would give to someone trying to use Gervais to understand someone in the organization's motivations : just because they may act according to Gervais doesn't mean they are bad or evil or broken in some way.
fyjvd90 8y ago
The more seasoned the manager or exec will say at this point that you should always see everyone as having good intentions. It’s of course not true at all, but seems to be one if the mental tools they use to not acknowledge what someone is really doing. I think what it does do in reality is gives the person a way out when they come to their senses without having to admit they went down a selfish dark path. So in that sense it’s practical. Although it can take years with some people too. Personally I just fire them if they report to me or I have sone influence I get them out of the org another way.

PaulHoule 8y ago

Sometimes when the "knives are out" you can't win or why would you want to?

maxxxxx 8y ago
at least you should try not to lose in that situation
james_s_tayler 8y ago
Well you at least don't want to bring a pillow to a knife fight.
- falcor84 8y ago
  Actually, wouldn't a pillow be a reasonably effective way to deflect a knife?
  - james_s_tayler 8y ago
    I usually think of the metaphor in terms of bringing a knife to a pillow fight as a play on "that's like bringing a knife to a gun fight" in which case my formulation is about having an innocent bit of fun and then someone going way overboard and doing something absolutely inappropriate. I sort of picture it in my head like everyone is having fun and then someone whips out a knife and then everyone starts to get very terrified. I never really considered how a pillow would actually hold up against a knife in a fight. My money would still be on the knife, but I take your point.
lazyasciiart 8y ago
Maybe you just don't want to get stabbed in the back before you get a new job.
yeahitslikethat 8y ago
We, the bold and productive, have to stand up to that kind of stuff. Else they by attrition.
sosilkj 8y ago
"why would you want to" you want to if you have a mortgage payment each month, or there are people in your life who depend on you for food and clothing.

dpweb 8y ago

Usually the technologist is not even in the room with the business leaders. Your manager or their manager is. You want to be (and be seen as) valuable. You have to depend on your manager to vouch for you. If you have a complete asshole political or whatever manager, you must find another job. Don’t bother swimming against the tide. But its a whole other language that business leaders speak. Different etiquette. At least in F50 companies it may be better in smaller tech companies. If you’re in the room you have to speak their language, not how you would talk w a group of technologists. You have to learn new languages and immersion is good if you can get into enough high level meetings. But, always complete self-confidence, decisiveness, problem solving. If people get aggressive, give it back. Even the CEO. Not disrespectful. Being tough without sounding like an asshole is also a skill. Even just the tone of your voice, so you have to have self control of your emotions. Good to have a healthy retirement account too you won’t be subconsciously so worried about losing your job.

yeahitslikethat 8y ago
Not caring if they fire you but wanting to stay and make life better for your coworkers everyday is the place to be if you can find it.
erikb 8y ago
Yes, always make sure to follow all the rules you've read in a book! Then you will be save and feel well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kfgXoclrjk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kfgXoclrjk

yeahitslikethat 8y ago

You're higher up the food chain than the audience of that article. Just keep doing your job better than they do their job and vent to allies behind closed doors. There's a guy on our team who does #1 one in the article ALL the time. NNP who slows the team by 25% probably. No one knows how to make him stop. Everyone is politely tapping on his fishbowl and it hasn't worked yet for like months.

hoorayimhelping 8y ago
>No one knows how to make him stop. Everyone is politely tapping on his fishbowl and it hasn't worked yet for like months. I was this employee once, but in a slightly different situation. I had a bad habit of responding to things I didn't understand in a way that almost always put people on the defensive. People didn't want to work or interact with me and politely and subtly trying to get me to stop didn't work. This was a problem across jobs, and was a huge blind spot for me. It took a very direct and blunt conversation from my new manager where he flat out told me when I behave this way, I come off like a complete prick and no one wants to work with me for me to even realize what I was doing. It crushed me for a few days, but after some reflection, I realized I was crushed because it was true. This was nearly 7 years ago, and I'll always love and appreciate my manager for having that hard conversation with me. His having the courage to be blunt with me has made me an immeasurably better person. My advice is find someone who is blunt or has the courage to have that hard conversation (my boss was English, and I think being blunt and direct was very natural for him, but he's also very courageous) and tell this person that their behavior is wasting a lot of people's time, and people are starting to get annoyed. Remind them that it's not a big deal now but it can become a big deal, and that in the end, people will remember the improvement and value that, not the original problem. I don't remember the pain of being crushed, I remember my appreciation for my manager who had this hard conversation with me when no one else in the past 3 years would.
- peteradio 8y ago
  I'm confused. What exactly were you doing?
sosilkj 8y ago

drharby 8y ago

You just described working in a tech org of a major IB

motohagiography 8y ago
Indeed, turns out I may also have described "gaslighting," https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/here-there-and-everywhere/201701/11-warning-signs-gaslighting https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/here-there-and-every... , which is perhaps why I sound so grouchy. Like a startup whose leadership in effect says, "we just raised way too much money and have no path to market fit, let's just gaslight the talent until they attrition out and we can blame them for the time lost, while hopefully our competitors will establish a market where then the board can find a greater fool to buy us before we have to raise another round." Please, help me be wrong. :)

Arubis 8y ago

I’d recommend the works of Venkatesh Rao: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-... https://www.ribbonfarm.com/be-slightly-evil/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/be-slightly-evil/

andyidsinga 8y ago
absolutely this! Gervais principle is a very valuable (and entertaining) way to decode what is going on in the organization. The one bit of advice I would give to someone trying to use Gervais to understand someone in the organization's motivations : just because they may act according to Gervais doesn't mean they are bad or evil or broken in some way.

fyjvd90 8y ago

The more seasoned the manager or exec will say at this point that you should always see everyone as having good intentions. It’s of course not true at all, but seems to be one if the mental tools they use to not acknowledge what someone is really doing. I think what it does do in reality is gives the person a way out when they come to their senses without having to admit they went down a selfish dark path. So in that sense it’s practical. Although it can take years with some people too. Personally I just fire them if they report to me or I have sone influence I get them out of the org another way.