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This whole idea of storing a payment token that a company can charge at will (as opposed to a fixed top-up with cash) and then for me to be unable to deny those

by yholio 8y ago

This whole idea of storing a payment token that a company can charge at will (as opposed to a fixed top-up with cash) and then for me to be unable to deny those charges, I find it all unacceptable and refuse to allow it ever. After providing such a payment token there should be no proof and dispute involved, just a single click in a web interface "I refuse to pay for that and I revoke the token". The user of the token should make sure I am happy so he can continue to charge the token. This is in sharp contrast with user initiated payments for a fixed amount, that should be carefully secured, require strong authentication and should almost never be reversible, unless actual fraud can be proven by the payer. The problem with cards on the internet and their high abuse and chargeback rates, for which we all pay, is that they conflate these fundamentally different use cases into a single set of static numbers.

colejohnson66 8y ago
Single use cards like privacy.com provides might be the solution you’re looking for
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- vezycash 8y ago
  Isn't privacy.com US only?
  - Cu3PO42 8y ago
    According to their website you need either a US checking account or debit card, so for all intents and purposes, yes. If you're in (certain parts of) Europe, Revolut will offer you one-time use virtual debit cards if you're on one of their paid plans. However, I have no personal experience with them. Being limited to one transaction each makes them a lot less interesting in my opinion, since I can't set up my subscriptions through different cards.
    - miluge 8y ago
      You can have a virtual CC ( or more but didnt check ) with Revolut that can be one time use or multiple, its all up to you for how long You want to use it.
      - Cu3PO42 8y ago
        I recently looked into them. You can have up to 5 on their premium plan. But these are still "normal" debit cards with no limits beyond the funding of your account. The service that privacy.com offers is different in that it allows you to control very precisely what kind of charges are allowed on any of your virtual cards (and allows you to have more than five). If I used a particular card only for Spotify, I could put a $10/month limit on it, for example. This is more akin to the one-time card offering, but it's not quite the same since it doesn't support recurring payments. On that note: if anyone is aware of a service like privacy.com available to users in mainland Europe, I'd be very interested to hear about it.
- a12432 8y ago
  AMEX is what provides that solution, and fine the merchant as a bonus. It's called disputing a charge. Other cards have the option too, but AMEX will fight for you the most. I've literally had merchants issue a partial refund, disputed the original charge, and ended up with bonus money, multiple times. There is a cost to using credit cards. One of the main reasons to use them is this protection against bad actors, and punishment of those actors by fines.
  - hyperman1 8y ago
    As an European who rarely sees credit cards, I always wonder if this is USA only? How do you dispute a charge? My web banking platform has options for almost everything, but not much credit card related. Do I contact my bank, or do I go straight to VISA?
    - matthewheath 8y ago
      You should usually contact your bank and dispute one of the charges on your bank statement (that's how it seems to work in the UK, at least.)
    - a12432 8y ago
      I click dispute in my online statement, check a couple of checkboxes to verify type of transaction, and write 1 line of why. Takes 30 seconds. Visa is not good for this, so I never use a Visa.
    - Cu3PO42 8y ago
      You can dispute CC charges in Europe as well. All of my cards specify that I should do this as soon as possible, but no later than one year after the charge. I have never needed a chargeback, but I had a peek at MasterCard's policy just now and it looks like you need to contact the issuing bank. I would assume it works the same for other four-party schemes such as Visa.
  - tinus_hn 8y ago
    Reversing the charges doesn’t work with Facebook because they will block your account and for most people that’s not an option. And Americans Express is not going to fine Facebook or suspend their merchant account. That’s for small merchants.
- sofunny 8y ago
  With all these good recommendations on this thread, I have decided to create a privacy.com account for my family. I have given privacy.com our address, my cell phone number, my email, and our bank information (they require the actual username and the password). All very vanilla, US, SF Bay Area, never had any problems with any other financial websites. Not enough! My account activation is incomplete until I link my privacy.com account to my Facebook account!!! I thought this is so funny in the context of this privacy/Facebook spying thread. Quote from my privacy.com account page: "Sometimes, the information provided at signup isn’t enough to verify someone’s identity, and activate their Privacy account. Connecting your Facebook account is a quick and easy way to provide extra identity verification. Okay" P.S. I am now feeling uneasy about the whole thing. I have changed my bank login password and I am trying to cancel/delete the privacy.com account -- but there is no such option in the website menus.
mcv 8y ago
This is in my opinion the core problem with credit cards: that the information to authorise payment is sent through the vendor, who can store it and reuse it without the customer being aware of it. That's just a broken payment system. A good payment system should require explicit authorisation through your own bank. That's how for example the Dutch iDeal system works. I never use a credit card for a site that accepts iDeal, and the only reason I have a credit card at all, is that many foreign sites don't specifically cater to Dutch customers, and therefore haven't implemented iDeal. I wish they did, or that there was a similar international payment standard that went through banks rather than merchants.
- Mirioron 8y ago
  >A good payment system should require explicit authorisation through your own bank. This would basically make sure I would almost never spend any money online, because going through a bank authorization is annoying enough that I'd rather just go do something else. Forget microtransactions, I wouldn't even buy most games.
  - JorgeGT 8y ago
    The way the system is implemented in Spain (not all sites use it sadly) is simply like 2FA, when you attempt to make the purchase the bank sends a sms or notification through their app with a code you need to input to confirm the order. Or is 2FA annoying as well for you? I know some people hate it.
    - Mirioron 8y ago
      I would have no problems with 2FA of the kind you described for banks. But such a system is not available here. You have to basically do a full login authentication here. I do hate 2FA. I like it, but I hate using it. I've stopped posting on some forums/using services. I didn't actively quit them, but when the service had logged me out and it asked me for the 2FA code, I winced and went to go do something else. Over time this happened enough that at some point I just didn't visit the site anymore.
  - 8y ago

by yholio 8y ago

colejohnson66 8y ago

Single use cards like privacy.com provides might be the solution you’re looking for

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
vezycash 8y ago
Isn't privacy.com US only?
- Cu3PO42 8y ago
  According to their website you need either a US checking account or debit card, so for all intents and purposes, yes. If you're in (certain parts of) Europe, Revolut will offer you one-time use virtual debit cards if you're on one of their paid plans. However, I have no personal experience with them. Being limited to one transaction each makes them a lot less interesting in my opinion, since I can't set up my subscriptions through different cards.
  - miluge 8y ago
    You can have a virtual CC ( or more but didnt check ) with Revolut that can be one time use or multiple, its all up to you for how long You want to use it.
    - Cu3PO42 8y ago
      I recently looked into them. You can have up to 5 on their premium plan. But these are still "normal" debit cards with no limits beyond the funding of your account. The service that privacy.com offers is different in that it allows you to control very precisely what kind of charges are allowed on any of your virtual cards (and allows you to have more than five). If I used a particular card only for Spotify, I could put a $10/month limit on it, for example. This is more akin to the one-time card offering, but it's not quite the same since it doesn't support recurring payments. On that note: if anyone is aware of a service like privacy.com available to users in mainland Europe, I'd be very interested to hear about it.
a12432 8y ago
AMEX is what provides that solution, and fine the merchant as a bonus. It's called disputing a charge. Other cards have the option too, but AMEX will fight for you the most. I've literally had merchants issue a partial refund, disputed the original charge, and ended up with bonus money, multiple times. There is a cost to using credit cards. One of the main reasons to use them is this protection against bad actors, and punishment of those actors by fines.
- hyperman1 8y ago
  As an European who rarely sees credit cards, I always wonder if this is USA only? How do you dispute a charge? My web banking platform has options for almost everything, but not much credit card related. Do I contact my bank, or do I go straight to VISA?
  - matthewheath 8y ago
    You should usually contact your bank and dispute one of the charges on your bank statement (that's how it seems to work in the UK, at least.)
  - a12432 8y ago
    I click dispute in my online statement, check a couple of checkboxes to verify type of transaction, and write 1 line of why. Takes 30 seconds. Visa is not good for this, so I never use a Visa.
  - Cu3PO42 8y ago
    You can dispute CC charges in Europe as well. All of my cards specify that I should do this as soon as possible, but no later than one year after the charge. I have never needed a chargeback, but I had a peek at MasterCard's policy just now and it looks like you need to contact the issuing bank. I would assume it works the same for other four-party schemes such as Visa.
- tinus_hn 8y ago
  Reversing the charges doesn’t work with Facebook because they will block your account and for most people that’s not an option. And Americans Express is not going to fine Facebook or suspend their merchant account. That’s for small merchants.
sofunny 8y ago
With all these good recommendations on this thread, I have decided to create a privacy.com account for my family. I have given privacy.com our address, my cell phone number, my email, and our bank information (they require the actual username and the password). All very vanilla, US, SF Bay Area, never had any problems with any other financial websites. Not enough! My account activation is incomplete until I link my privacy.com account to my Facebook account!!! I thought this is so funny in the context of this privacy/Facebook spying thread. Quote from my privacy.com account page: "Sometimes, the information provided at signup isn’t enough to verify someone’s identity, and activate their Privacy account. Connecting your Facebook account is a quick and easy way to provide extra identity verification. Okay" P.S. I am now feeling uneasy about the whole thing. I have changed my bank login password and I am trying to cancel/delete the privacy.com account -- but there is no such option in the website menus.

mcv 8y ago

This is in my opinion the core problem with credit cards: that the information to authorise payment is sent through the vendor, who can store it and reuse it without the customer being aware of it. That's just a broken payment system. A good payment system should require explicit authorisation through your own bank. That's how for example the Dutch iDeal system works. I never use a credit card for a site that accepts iDeal, and the only reason I have a credit card at all, is that many foreign sites don't specifically cater to Dutch customers, and therefore haven't implemented iDeal. I wish they did, or that there was a similar international payment standard that went through banks rather than merchants.

Mirioron 8y ago
>A good payment system should require explicit authorisation through your own bank. This would basically make sure I would almost never spend any money online, because going through a bank authorization is annoying enough that I'd rather just go do something else. Forget microtransactions, I wouldn't even buy most games.
- JorgeGT 8y ago
  The way the system is implemented in Spain (not all sites use it sadly) is simply like 2FA, when you attempt to make the purchase the bank sends a sms or notification through their app with a code you need to input to confirm the order. Or is 2FA annoying as well for you? I know some people hate it.
  - Mirioron 8y ago
    I would have no problems with 2FA of the kind you described for banks. But such a system is not available here. You have to basically do a full login authentication here. I do hate 2FA. I like it, but I hate using it. I've stopped posting on some forums/using services. I didn't actively quit them, but when the service had logged me out and it asked me for the 2FA code, I winced and went to go do something else. Over time this happened enough that at some point I just didn't visit the site anymore.
- 8y ago