4 ms·

If parental leave is equal between genders, this argument may stand. But beware any unequal treatment of men and women with generous leave. It creates big ince

If parental leave is equal between genders, this argument may stand. But beware any unequal treatment of men and women with generous leave. It creates big incentives not to hire women of a certain age and family status. It's a lot harder to oppose discrimination when the discrimination is obviously rational and arguably not even wrong.

m0zg 8y ago
I do wish it was socially acceptable for men to stay at home with kids too. In 90% of the cases currently people will think there's something wrong with the man.
- purplethinking 8y ago
  The way it's done in Sweden is that 3 months are reserved for the father, otherwise they're forfeited. Works wonders because initially, fathers had a very legitimate reason to take the leave, anything else would be giving up free money. But once it became the norm, it changed the culture. Now it's creeping upwards slowly, at around 4.5 months on average I think. Not amazing, but it's enough that it's harder to discriminate against women in particular, rather than perhaps more broadly couples in their early 30s... What I see though is that since everyone's doing it, there is a much bigger understanding in company culture that people may be away for a while and just find ways of dealing with that.
  - kelnos 8y ago
    Unfortunately I think many men in the US would forfeit that time, free money or not, believing that taking leave as a father is "unmanly" or "shows a lack of loyalty to the company". It's incredibly dumb, but... social pressure usually is.
    - purplethinking 8y ago
      I don't think American culture is more fundamentally macho than Swedish culture. Maybe now it is on average, but not when this rule came into place. Monetary incentives really do work.
      - m0zg 8y ago
        It's not about being macho or anything. It's about societal expectations. I feel that here in the US this shit is actually seeping into the female population as well as more women insist on equality with men. So rather than insist on affording quality parenting time to fathers (which IMO is what they should actually want if they want real, actual equality), they give it up themselves. The aforementioned Swedish use-it-or-lose-it model strikes me as sensible. Some companies here in the US offer vacation time in this fashion, without rollover into the new year, and anecdotally people make it a point to take vacation in that case.

m0zg 8y ago

I do wish it was socially acceptable for men to stay at home with kids too. In 90% of the cases currently people will think there's something wrong with the man.

purplethinking 8y ago
The way it's done in Sweden is that 3 months are reserved for the father, otherwise they're forfeited. Works wonders because initially, fathers had a very legitimate reason to take the leave, anything else would be giving up free money. But once it became the norm, it changed the culture. Now it's creeping upwards slowly, at around 4.5 months on average I think. Not amazing, but it's enough that it's harder to discriminate against women in particular, rather than perhaps more broadly couples in their early 30s... What I see though is that since everyone's doing it, there is a much bigger understanding in company culture that people may be away for a while and just find ways of dealing with that.
- kelnos 8y ago
  Unfortunately I think many men in the US would forfeit that time, free money or not, believing that taking leave as a father is "unmanly" or "shows a lack of loyalty to the company". It's incredibly dumb, but... social pressure usually is.
  - purplethinking 8y ago
    I don't think American culture is more fundamentally macho than Swedish culture. Maybe now it is on average, but not when this rule came into place. Monetary incentives really do work.
    - m0zg 8y ago
      It's not about being macho or anything. It's about societal expectations. I feel that here in the US this shit is actually seeping into the female population as well as more women insist on equality with men. So rather than insist on affording quality parenting time to fathers (which IMO is what they should actually want if they want real, actual equality), they give it up themselves. The aforementioned Swedish use-it-or-lose-it model strikes me as sensible. Some companies here in the US offer vacation time in this fashion, without rollover into the new year, and anecdotally people make it a point to take vacation in that case.