6 ms·

Strictly speaking, their pay is delayed - they will be paid for all the work, eventually. Still, regular employees should not be going through this, though.

by jazzyk 8y ago

_djo_ 8y ago
None of the contractors will be paid, as I understand it, only permanent federal employees.
- jazzyk 8y ago
  Yes, that comes with the territory (contract cancellations or delayed/non payments are risks associated with running any business).
  - _djo_ 8y ago
    Though of course the underlying risk is that few contractors are going to want to work for the US government again, making it a lot more difficult to fill some positions where skills are scarce. The knock-on effects of this shutdown are going to be around for years.
    - zaroth 8y ago
      The contracting work is profitable enough to account for the various levels of risk, from federal audits to funding delays to government shutdowns. I predict the knock-on effects of this shutdown will be gone and forgotten within a fiscal quarter. The best evidence of this is looking at the stock market since the partial shutdown began.
  - bdcravens 8y ago
    The narrative around government contract work is that it is more stable and the checks will never bounce.
  - SamBam 8y ago
    In general a long-term contract with the government is an almost-guaranteed deal, except in very rare cases like these. It's completely reasonable for contractors to have arranged their finances expecting to be working. (Obviously no job is guaranteed, but most Americans still only have enough cushion for a couple months.)
  - jazzyk 8y ago
    Not sure why I am being downvoted - I run a consulting business myself and I wake up every day knowing that I may be asked not to return to work the following day - for any reason.
- brianwawok 8y ago
  Contractors are not working now though they were sent home. There are 3 buckets of people: 1) Employees forced to work. Promised backpay by a resolution that was passed. 2) Employees not allowed to work. Promised backpay by a resolution. "Free vacation" 3) Contractors not allowed to work. Will not get backpay, money lost is "gone" forever.
  - morpheuskafka 8y ago
    Wouldn't 13A guarantee (1) getting paid regardless of resolution?
    - rootusrootus 8y ago
      Yes, they cannot be denied pay for work done.
    - tylersmith 8y ago
      I believe the resolution is the implementation of the pay guaranteed by the 13th Amendment. The Amendment just says that they must be paid while the resolution says when and how that will happen.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      Probably not; the 13th, per Supreme Court precedent, only applies to physical coercion/threat of force. Work for free or you won't have a job around when we get authority to pay you again isn't physical coercion. OTOH, FLSA would guarantee most federal civilian employees some back pay, though not necessarily their full normal pay.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > None of the contractors will be paid, as I understand it, only permanent federal employees. There's no reason Congress couldn't include back pay under some formula for contractors or employees of contracting firms who lost money due to the shutdown, but historically they have not done so (but, again, this is already the longest-ever shutdown and it may be so by much moreso than it already is, so it wouldn't be entirely inconceivable for Congress to decide extraordinary measures were warranted to address it's impacts.) Conversely, Congress is not obligated to issue full back pay to furloughed federal employees, though it has in past shutdowns; it may also not be required to do so for those forced to work during the shutdown (though, again, it always has); though because FLSA applies to most federal employees those covered employees are definitely entitled to at least federal minimum wage for the time they were ordered to work. While it seems less likely, the extreme length of the shutdown could lead a particularly stingy Congress to decide back pay beyond what is minimally required is unaffordable.
giarc 8y ago
What about the federal workers that aren't at work? Will they still get paid?
- Godel_unicode 8y ago
  Yes: https://www.fedweek.com/fedweek/guidance-issued-on-back-pay-when-shutdown-ends/ https://www.fedweek.com/fedweek/guidance-issued-on-back-pay-... https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/17/back-pay-approved-furloughed-federal-employees-once-shutdown-ends/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/17/back-pay-...
scarmig 8y ago
There's at least two classes of employees here: 1) essentials, who are required to work and will indeed likely be repaid 2) non-essentials, who are not allowed to work and will not be repaid. They've effectively been forced into an unplanned month-long+ leave of absence. To be honest I feel worse for this group, though it sucks for everyone. ETA: this is inaccurate, was thinking of contractors. Though I do wonder how hourly workers will be handled.
- brianwawok 8y ago
  Non-essentials EMPLOYEES are going to get paid. They have in every other shutdown. They essentially are taking a paycheck delay in exchange for a 30+ day vacation.
- bpp 8y ago
  That's not quite right. We won't know how pay works out until there's an appropriation ending the shutdown, but in past shutdowns both essential and non-essential employees have been paid what they're owed (I'm not quite sure how this works for hourly workers). Which is to say we'll have forced some people to work for no pay, and paid others for doing no work. (Yes, the pay is in fact just delayed. But "no pay" is pithier.)
- chki 8y ago
  I'm pretty sure a recent bill has actually changed the number 2) situation by requiring back pay for those that didn't work as well: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/16/politics/trump-signs-backpay-bill-government-shutdown/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/16/politics/trump-signs-back... But maybe I'm wrong, the article is actually quite unclear.
- bargl 8y ago
  I can jump in here as I've been a contractor, my wife is still a contractor and back-pay for contractors doesn't typically happen (Tim Kaine I believe introduced a bill including contractors). It could but it probably wont. On the flip side, different contracting agencies handle things differently. Some will let you take Leave and go in the hole while others will subsidies the shutdown for you. As always it's complicated, but it's a good assumption that someone in the contracting chain is losing money.
runako 8y ago
> they will be paid for all the work, eventually The reductio on this argument ("why not just pay them for the year in a lump sum on December 31, 2019?") makes it obvious how inadequate it is given two pay periods have already been missed. There are real financial costs being created (late fees, etc.) that the government is offloading onto its employees. This is dishonorable.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
  In a little bit we should probably start considering inflation as well.
SamBam 8y ago
Not necessarily those who have been furloughed from working. Those who are currently working without pay will almost certainly be paid, the others expect to be but there are no guarantees.
atonse 8y ago
Doesn't matter if they're living paycheck to paycheck.

Strictly speaking, their pay is delayed - they will be paid for all the work, eventually. Still, regular employees should not be going through this, though.

by jazzyk 8y ago

Strictly speaking, their pay is delayed - they will be paid for all the work, eventually. Still, regular employees should not be going through this, though.

_djo_ 8y ago

None of the contractors will be paid, as I understand it, only permanent federal employees.

jazzyk 8y ago
Yes, that comes with the territory (contract cancellations or delayed/non payments are risks associated with running any business).
- _djo_ 8y ago
  Though of course the underlying risk is that few contractors are going to want to work for the US government again, making it a lot more difficult to fill some positions where skills are scarce. The knock-on effects of this shutdown are going to be around for years.
  - zaroth 8y ago
    The contracting work is profitable enough to account for the various levels of risk, from federal audits to funding delays to government shutdowns. I predict the knock-on effects of this shutdown will be gone and forgotten within a fiscal quarter. The best evidence of this is looking at the stock market since the partial shutdown began.
- bdcravens 8y ago
  The narrative around government contract work is that it is more stable and the checks will never bounce.
- SamBam 8y ago
  In general a long-term contract with the government is an almost-guaranteed deal, except in very rare cases like these. It's completely reasonable for contractors to have arranged their finances expecting to be working. (Obviously no job is guaranteed, but most Americans still only have enough cushion for a couple months.)
- jazzyk 8y ago
  Not sure why I am being downvoted - I run a consulting business myself and I wake up every day knowing that I may be asked not to return to work the following day - for any reason.
brianwawok 8y ago
Contractors are not working now though they were sent home. There are 3 buckets of people: 1) Employees forced to work. Promised backpay by a resolution that was passed. 2) Employees not allowed to work. Promised backpay by a resolution. "Free vacation" 3) Contractors not allowed to work. Will not get backpay, money lost is "gone" forever.
- morpheuskafka 8y ago
  Wouldn't 13A guarantee (1) getting paid regardless of resolution?
  - rootusrootus 8y ago
    Yes, they cannot be denied pay for work done.
  - tylersmith 8y ago
    I believe the resolution is the implementation of the pay guaranteed by the 13th Amendment. The Amendment just says that they must be paid while the resolution says when and how that will happen.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    Probably not; the 13th, per Supreme Court precedent, only applies to physical coercion/threat of force. Work for free or you won't have a job around when we get authority to pay you again isn't physical coercion. OTOH, FLSA would guarantee most federal civilian employees some back pay, though not necessarily their full normal pay.
dragonwriter 8y ago
> None of the contractors will be paid, as I understand it, only permanent federal employees. There's no reason Congress couldn't include back pay under some formula for contractors or employees of contracting firms who lost money due to the shutdown, but historically they have not done so (but, again, this is already the longest-ever shutdown and it may be so by much moreso than it already is, so it wouldn't be entirely inconceivable for Congress to decide extraordinary measures were warranted to address it's impacts.) Conversely, Congress is not obligated to issue full back pay to furloughed federal employees, though it has in past shutdowns; it may also not be required to do so for those forced to work during the shutdown (though, again, it always has); though because FLSA applies to most federal employees those covered employees are definitely entitled to at least federal minimum wage for the time they were ordered to work. While it seems less likely, the extreme length of the shutdown could lead a particularly stingy Congress to decide back pay beyond what is minimally required is unaffordable.

giarc 8y ago

What about the federal workers that aren't at work? Will they still get paid?

Godel_unicode 8y ago
Yes: https://www.fedweek.com/fedweek/guidance-issued-on-back-pay-when-shutdown-ends/ https://www.fedweek.com/fedweek/guidance-issued-on-back-pay-... https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/17/back-pay-approved-furloughed-federal-employees-once-shutdown-ends/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/17/back-pay-...

scarmig 8y ago

There's at least two classes of employees here: 1) essentials, who are required to work and will indeed likely be repaid 2) non-essentials, who are not allowed to work and will not be repaid. They've effectively been forced into an unplanned month-long+ leave of absence. To be honest I feel worse for this group, though it sucks for everyone. ETA: this is inaccurate, was thinking of contractors. Though I do wonder how hourly workers will be handled.

brianwawok 8y ago
Non-essentials EMPLOYEES are going to get paid. They have in every other shutdown. They essentially are taking a paycheck delay in exchange for a 30+ day vacation.
bpp 8y ago
That's not quite right. We won't know how pay works out until there's an appropriation ending the shutdown, but in past shutdowns both essential and non-essential employees have been paid what they're owed (I'm not quite sure how this works for hourly workers). Which is to say we'll have forced some people to work for no pay, and paid others for doing no work. (Yes, the pay is in fact just delayed. But "no pay" is pithier.)
chki 8y ago
I'm pretty sure a recent bill has actually changed the number 2) situation by requiring back pay for those that didn't work as well: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/16/politics/trump-signs-backpay-bill-government-shutdown/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/16/politics/trump-signs-back... But maybe I'm wrong, the article is actually quite unclear.
bargl 8y ago
I can jump in here as I've been a contractor, my wife is still a contractor and back-pay for contractors doesn't typically happen (Tim Kaine I believe introduced a bill including contractors). It could but it probably wont. On the flip side, different contracting agencies handle things differently. Some will let you take Leave and go in the hole while others will subsidies the shutdown for you. As always it's complicated, but it's a good assumption that someone in the contracting chain is losing money.

runako 8y ago

> they will be paid for all the work, eventually The reductio on this argument ("why not just pay them for the year in a lump sum on December 31, 2019?") makes it obvious how inadequate it is given two pay periods have already been missed. There are real financial costs being created (late fees, etc.) that the government is offloading onto its employees. This is dishonorable.

SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
In a little bit we should probably start considering inflation as well.

SamBam 8y ago

Not necessarily those who have been furloughed from working. Those who are currently working without pay will almost certainly be paid, the others expect to be but there are no guarantees.

atonse 8y ago

Doesn't matter if they're living paycheck to paycheck.