4 ms·

I'm glad this was posted despite being perennial -- it's the first time I've read it. Does anyone have any similar "classic" Feynman stories to share?

yesenadam 8y ago
He wrote a few books of reminiscences which are full of them, great reads. But this was the first time I've seen his...extremely ugly sexist behaviour displayed, not just hinted about. Very odd. In his books he's just a bit of a ladies man.
- andyjohnson0 8y ago
  James Gleick's biography of Feynman, Genius, is a good read and complements the books Feynman wrote himself. > first time I've seen his...extremely ugly sexist behaviour displayed Not to excuse it, but he was the product of a different time.
  - yesenadam 8y ago
    Well, why say that? Of course it's an attempt at excusing it. I almost included a sentence saying "Yes, he was a product of an earlier time, but (civilized) people didn't go around treating women like that then any more than they do nowadays, i.e. not at all."
    - mywittyname 8y ago
      We look up to historical figures who owned slaves. There were people who were morally opposed to slavery back then as well. The fact is, people who accomplished great things also engaged in morally questionable stuff as well. If we try to erase all of these figures from our history books, they'll end up empty. We have to accept that social mores fluctuate over the generations and read history with the appropriate perspective.
      - JKCalhoun 8y ago
        Don't erase them then, but present their flaws as well.
      - yesenadam 8y ago
        Tell me about it, I'm vegan/non-animal-product-using. It's not just the distant past that's "morally questionable" for me. So the problem you are fixing is that I haven't "accepted that social mores fluctuate over the generations"? And am "trying to erase" Feynman from the history books? Uh no. It sounds like you copied those bland clichés all out from your high school notes. I don't disagree with any one sentence, but put together, I wonder who benefits from hearing that speech. I'm no SJW or general hater of dead white males, don't worry. Maybe it's the standard reply to them. Sorry if this all sounds condescending - what you wrote comes over as super-condescending also. It's difficult when we have no idea who we're talking to!
    - andyjohnson0 8y ago
      > > Not to excuse it, but he was the product of a different time. > Well, why say that? Of course it's an attempt at excusing it. No it isn't. Because there's a difference between excusing something and explaining it. As my post was a recommendation for a book about Feynman's life, I felt was doing the latter not the former. Just to be clear, then. Sexist behaviour was just as wrong during Feynman's lifetime as it is today. Unfortunately it's a fact that such attitudes were also more prevalent then than they are now. And Feynman's genius didn't, and still doesn't, excuse his sexist behaviour.
      - yesenadam 8y ago
        Ok sure, I hear you. People who say "I don't mean to be racist, but.." almost always immediately say something racist, and never feel like it is racist. That seems exactly like "Not to excuse it, but.." - "Not to excuse it" comes out because your brain feels the need to say that, in the same way. Also I guess it's hard talking with people we don't know - assessing what to take for granted or not. Maybe you really did mean "not to excuse it"! Sorry. I wonder what 'attitude' Feynman actually had. I've never heard of anyone actually doing what he does in that story, have you? It's not much detail to go on, but it sounds like he thought it was funny? Or enjoyed the humiliation, was turned on. He can't have thought it was appropriate. Can he? I mean, people never did that, even thousands of years ago. Just seems like an extremely gauche 'joke'...demeaning, insulting. So does that book shed any light? Was everyone like that then? (I don't think so) [Disclosure: Besides his reminiscences, which I read as a kid, I've watched a load of his lectures, interviews and talks, (and introduced them to other people), as well as worked through as much of the 3 volumes of the Lectures on Physics as I could understand, a couple of times. He's one of my scientific heroes.]
        andyjohnson0 8y ago
        > "Not to excuse it" comes out because your brain feels the need to say that, in the same way. No. Its not the same thing. People who say "I'm not racist but ..." are attempting a pre-emptive distraction from their own breaking of a social norm. I wasn't doing that. And you have no idea know what my "brain feels the need to say". I don't even know why you'd think you do. I could have written "I think he was the product of the different times he lived through. That doesn't excuse his behaviour, but I think it explains it." But I was short of time: that's all. And I'm going to leave it at that.
- yesenadam 8y ago
  What am I being downvoted for here exactly, downvoters?[0] Do people think the behaviour mentioned is at all acceptable?! Or that 'extremely ugly sexist behaviour' isn't a fair characterization? I can't see what else in what I said could cause offence. We are talking about Feynman, who believed in speaking the plain truth, pretty or not. And that story is just very creepy: "in many ways Richard was a sexist. Whenever it came time for his daily bowl of soup he would look around for the nearest "girl" and ask if she would fetch it to him. It did not matter if she was the cook, an engineer, or the president of the company. I once asked a female engineer who had just been a victim of this if it bothered her. "Yes, it really annoys me," she said." [0] Sorry to mention it, but this doesn't seem quite the standard case.
  - JKCalhoun 8y ago
    I agree with you, it is creepy. And I did not downvote you. Maybe people feel you are cherrypicking the article — drawing attention to the one creepy bit.
  - sten 8y ago
    Don't leave out the rest of the quote. >"Yes, it really annoys me," she said. "On the other hand, he is the only one who ever explained quantum mechanics to me as if I could understand it." That was the essence of Richard's charm.
    - yesenadam 8y ago
      I "left that out" because it reminded me of how people say "Yes, my husband was a violent psychopath, but underneath he was a gentle, sensitive man." or something. Being 'charming' is how sociopaths get away with it, not a balancing, redeeming feature. So don't tell me I have to mention the "redeeming feature", thanks. (Besides, I thought it was strange she said "as if I could understand it", not "in a way I could understand"...it sounded to me like she didn't understand.)
      - sten 8y ago
        Whoever this woman was, she was an engineer working at a cutting edge computer company in the 1970s. She likely suffered ridiculous prejudices to get to the point where she was. I'm inclined to believe that she did know (at least some) quantum mechanics and had to put up with people treating her as if she didn't know. I can see how you've read the context and I think I've taken the opposite understanding. Either way, now people who didn't read the article can see both and decide for themselves!

yesenadam 8y ago

He wrote a few books of reminiscences which are full of them, great reads. But this was the first time I've seen his...extremely ugly sexist behaviour displayed, not just hinted about. Very odd. In his books he's just a bit of a ladies man.

andyjohnson0 8y ago
James Gleick's biography of Feynman, Genius, is a good read and complements the books Feynman wrote himself. > first time I've seen his...extremely ugly sexist behaviour displayed Not to excuse it, but he was the product of a different time.
- yesenadam 8y ago
  Well, why say that? Of course it's an attempt at excusing it. I almost included a sentence saying "Yes, he was a product of an earlier time, but (civilized) people didn't go around treating women like that then any more than they do nowadays, i.e. not at all."
  - mywittyname 8y ago
    We look up to historical figures who owned slaves. There were people who were morally opposed to slavery back then as well. The fact is, people who accomplished great things also engaged in morally questionable stuff as well. If we try to erase all of these figures from our history books, they'll end up empty. We have to accept that social mores fluctuate over the generations and read history with the appropriate perspective.
    - JKCalhoun 8y ago
      Don't erase them then, but present their flaws as well.
    - yesenadam 8y ago
      Tell me about it, I'm vegan/non-animal-product-using. It's not just the distant past that's "morally questionable" for me. So the problem you are fixing is that I haven't "accepted that social mores fluctuate over the generations"? And am "trying to erase" Feynman from the history books? Uh no. It sounds like you copied those bland clichés all out from your high school notes. I don't disagree with any one sentence, but put together, I wonder who benefits from hearing that speech. I'm no SJW or general hater of dead white males, don't worry. Maybe it's the standard reply to them. Sorry if this all sounds condescending - what you wrote comes over as super-condescending also. It's difficult when we have no idea who we're talking to!
  - andyjohnson0 8y ago
    > > Not to excuse it, but he was the product of a different time. > Well, why say that? Of course it's an attempt at excusing it. No it isn't. Because there's a difference between excusing something and explaining it. As my post was a recommendation for a book about Feynman's life, I felt was doing the latter not the former. Just to be clear, then. Sexist behaviour was just as wrong during Feynman's lifetime as it is today. Unfortunately it's a fact that such attitudes were also more prevalent then than they are now. And Feynman's genius didn't, and still doesn't, excuse his sexist behaviour.
    - yesenadam 8y ago
      Ok sure, I hear you. People who say "I don't mean to be racist, but.." almost always immediately say something racist, and never feel like it is racist. That seems exactly like "Not to excuse it, but.." - "Not to excuse it" comes out because your brain feels the need to say that, in the same way. Also I guess it's hard talking with people we don't know - assessing what to take for granted or not. Maybe you really did mean "not to excuse it"! Sorry. I wonder what 'attitude' Feynman actually had. I've never heard of anyone actually doing what he does in that story, have you? It's not much detail to go on, but it sounds like he thought it was funny? Or enjoyed the humiliation, was turned on. He can't have thought it was appropriate. Can he? I mean, people never did that, even thousands of years ago. Just seems like an extremely gauche 'joke'...demeaning, insulting. So does that book shed any light? Was everyone like that then? (I don't think so) [Disclosure: Besides his reminiscences, which I read as a kid, I've watched a load of his lectures, interviews and talks, (and introduced them to other people), as well as worked through as much of the 3 volumes of the Lectures on Physics as I could understand, a couple of times. He's one of my scientific heroes.]
      - andyjohnson0 8y ago
        > "Not to excuse it" comes out because your brain feels the need to say that, in the same way. No. Its not the same thing. People who say "I'm not racist but ..." are attempting a pre-emptive distraction from their own breaking of a social norm. I wasn't doing that. And you have no idea know what my "brain feels the need to say". I don't even know why you'd think you do. I could have written "I think he was the product of the different times he lived through. That doesn't excuse his behaviour, but I think it explains it." But I was short of time: that's all. And I'm going to leave it at that.
yesenadam 8y ago
What am I being downvoted for here exactly, downvoters?[0] Do people think the behaviour mentioned is at all acceptable?! Or that 'extremely ugly sexist behaviour' isn't a fair characterization? I can't see what else in what I said could cause offence. We are talking about Feynman, who believed in speaking the plain truth, pretty or not. And that story is just very creepy: "in many ways Richard was a sexist. Whenever it came time for his daily bowl of soup he would look around for the nearest "girl" and ask if she would fetch it to him. It did not matter if she was the cook, an engineer, or the president of the company. I once asked a female engineer who had just been a victim of this if it bothered her. "Yes, it really annoys me," she said." [0] Sorry to mention it, but this doesn't seem quite the standard case.
- JKCalhoun 8y ago
  I agree with you, it is creepy. And I did not downvote you. Maybe people feel you are cherrypicking the article — drawing attention to the one creepy bit.
- sten 8y ago
  Don't leave out the rest of the quote. >"Yes, it really annoys me," she said. "On the other hand, he is the only one who ever explained quantum mechanics to me as if I could understand it." That was the essence of Richard's charm.
  - yesenadam 8y ago
    I "left that out" because it reminded me of how people say "Yes, my husband was a violent psychopath, but underneath he was a gentle, sensitive man." or something. Being 'charming' is how sociopaths get away with it, not a balancing, redeeming feature. So don't tell me I have to mention the "redeeming feature", thanks. (Besides, I thought it was strange she said "as if I could understand it", not "in a way I could understand"...it sounded to me like she didn't understand.)
    - sten 8y ago
      Whoever this woman was, she was an engineer working at a cutting edge computer company in the 1970s. She likely suffered ridiculous prejudices to get to the point where she was. I'm inclined to believe that she did know (at least some) quantum mechanics and had to put up with people treating her as if she didn't know. I can see how you've read the context and I think I've taken the opposite understanding. Either way, now people who didn't read the article can see both and decide for themselves!