7 ms·

This is a toxic and harmful attitude. There are genetic, dietary and fitness components to obesity. This is not disputed. At least one of these components is o

This is a toxic and harmful attitude. There are genetic, dietary and fitness components to obesity. This is not disputed. At least one of these components is outside of the control of the individual. Others can be influenced. If someone is chronically obese, the best thing for them is to work on what they can control with professionals, which might normally include a dietitian or a personal trainer but they might also benefit from work with professionals in other fields -- psychiatry, comorbid diseases etc. And having friends support them in this process helps too. (I don't think their friends should tell them "fat is beautiful," by the way, but I'm not a professional in any of the relevant fields, so does my opinion even matter?) At no point do I think shaming the obese (which is basically what you're doing when you say "this is simple and it's your fault" does more harm than good. Shame isn't listed anywhere as a treatment for any disease or disorder as far as I know.

benj111 8y ago
While I wouldn't be as blunt as the OP, I wouldn't describe it as toxic. Ultimately if you are obese, it's because you've eaten too much and that needs to be accepted before you can do anything about it.
- AstralStorm 8y ago
  Ultimately you're toxic, because most people (obese or not) I know have tried at least one way to lose weight which cut calories and it failed. If you have nothing effective to offer, really the best thing is sometimes to shut up and research why they fail and how to not make them fail.
  - benj111 8y ago
    No need to be rude. I'm not saying its easy or simple, but ultimately it comes down to calories in and calories out. The problem isn't going to go away if you attack people for saying that. It is the foundations that all solutions are based on.
    - tomhoward 8y ago
      They were a bit rude, but you were too. It may be technically true to say "ultimately it comes down to calories in and calories out", bit its unhelpful, or more importantly, unactionable. What you wave away with the casual use of the word "ultimately" is a vastly complex combination of inherited, environmental, physiological and emotional factors. Saying "ultimately it comes down to calories in and calories out" to someone who has spent years desperately trying to control their calories in and their calories out but without much success is surely more rude than anything that's been said in any replies to you.
      - benj111 8y ago
        But it is actionable. Further, if you deny that basic premise, it does become unactionable. Its like an addiction. People aren't being strapped down and force fed X drug. They have some agency, to deny that doesn't solve the problem, it makes the problem worse. I'm not saying I have the answer. The number of pills, diets, therapies etc would suggest few, if any people do. Never the less what ever the answer is has to include a basic dietary balance. This study doesn't change that fact, all the environmental, physiological and emotional factors don't change that fact. Suggesting it or anyone that mentions it is 'toxic' isn't helpful.
        tomhoward 8y ago
        So, you've conceded that it's likely that nobody has an answer on which people can take action and reliably expect a positive outcome, but then doubled down and insisted that people should take action anyway? Can you not see the unhelpfulness right there in your comment? Consider someone who is desperate to get healthy, and is determined to do whatever it takes to do so, and has already spent years desperately trying in vain to get results; if they were to read your comment, what could their reaction be, other than to be frustrated and dispirited? For what it's worth, I do actually have answers; I've been researching and experimenting with this stuff for many years, and have figured out a approach that seems to work for me and others and should work well for anyone who follows the same principles. And I agree that calories-in/calories-out is part of it; but it's only one factor among many, and it takes a lot of time, persistence and knowhow. So perhaps you can understand that I'm familiar with your point of view, and that I've heard it frequently enough and thought about it long enough to know just how simplistic and unhelpful it is.
- pan69 8y ago
  You might be over simplifying things a bit. Your statement might be true for "healthy bodies" but not everyone is healthy, or even has the same body chemistry. I'm by no means an expert and the subject of obesity doesn't really interest me that much, but the other day I was reading something about obesity in relation to the over prescription on antibiotics, and how especially children who received antibiotics during their childhood might have obesity problems later in life due to how the antibiotics affect the gut bacteria. Again I'm no expert, but the calories in/out story seems just way to simple.
- belorn 8y ago
  Saying people are obese because they have eaten too much is like saying people die in traffic because they accelerated or decelerated too fast. Technical true but very unhelpful in describing the problem and potential solutions.
  - benj111 8y ago
    How do seat belts and air bags and crumple zones work? You can't get to a solution without accepting it. You can't stop people dying by describing that fact as toxic. No it's not a, or the solution, you can't ignore I though.
Tepix 8y ago
I'm curious: What's your opinion on smoking? Genetics are also likely to be involved in the likelihood of someone (not) being able to stop smoking (perhaps also starting to smoke), right? However, I haven't heard anyone blaming their smoking habit on genetics.
- AstralStorm 8y ago
  There is a difference, a major one. You have to eat and you don't have to smoke. Food is everywhere, cigarettes and smokers can be avoided.
  - eulalila 8y ago
    That’s good to hear, I live in a poor area with my family who smoke heavily (along with the majority of our neighbors, friends, people who serve us at the restaurants I eat at, people who we serve at the restaurants we work at, etc). I will just simply avoid almost everyone I know (and don’t know) from now on, thank you.
- throwmeback 8y ago
  Some people have addictive personalities.
- apatters 8y ago
  I don't think you can paint all smokers with the same brush but a lot of them seem to turn to the habit for the purpose of stress relief/escape and then they get hooked. The key point is the same: neither cohort benefits from being shamed by a judgey peanut gallery that reduces things to black and white, like the one in this thread. They benefit from engagement with supportive personal contacts and professionals who can help them resolve the underlying issues. The judgey peanut gallery can actually make things worse.
collyw 8y ago
> This is a toxic and harmful attitude. Removing all personal responsibility is a harmful attitude.
- tomhoward 8y ago
  People get into trouble on this topic by leaping to absolutes, i.e., "removing all personal responsibility". I've personally taken "all personal responsibility" for my health, and it's been hugely costly, and only possible because I've been fortunate to have the means and time to do it. There are plenty of people who try to take full responsibility for their weight or general health, but don't get results because they don't have the time or means to do it given the unlucky hand they were dealt and the realities of their life circumstances, and also because medical science just doesn't have consistently reliable solutions that work for everyone with even the greatest motivation and discipline.

benj111 8y ago

While I wouldn't be as blunt as the OP, I wouldn't describe it as toxic. Ultimately if you are obese, it's because you've eaten too much and that needs to be accepted before you can do anything about it.

AstralStorm 8y ago
Ultimately you're toxic, because most people (obese or not) I know have tried at least one way to lose weight which cut calories and it failed. If you have nothing effective to offer, really the best thing is sometimes to shut up and research why they fail and how to not make them fail.
- benj111 8y ago
  No need to be rude. I'm not saying its easy or simple, but ultimately it comes down to calories in and calories out. The problem isn't going to go away if you attack people for saying that. It is the foundations that all solutions are based on.
  - tomhoward 8y ago
    They were a bit rude, but you were too. It may be technically true to say "ultimately it comes down to calories in and calories out", bit its unhelpful, or more importantly, unactionable. What you wave away with the casual use of the word "ultimately" is a vastly complex combination of inherited, environmental, physiological and emotional factors. Saying "ultimately it comes down to calories in and calories out" to someone who has spent years desperately trying to control their calories in and their calories out but without much success is surely more rude than anything that's been said in any replies to you.
    - benj111 8y ago
      But it is actionable. Further, if you deny that basic premise, it does become unactionable. Its like an addiction. People aren't being strapped down and force fed X drug. They have some agency, to deny that doesn't solve the problem, it makes the problem worse. I'm not saying I have the answer. The number of pills, diets, therapies etc would suggest few, if any people do. Never the less what ever the answer is has to include a basic dietary balance. This study doesn't change that fact, all the environmental, physiological and emotional factors don't change that fact. Suggesting it or anyone that mentions it is 'toxic' isn't helpful.
      - tomhoward 8y ago
        So, you've conceded that it's likely that nobody has an answer on which people can take action and reliably expect a positive outcome, but then doubled down and insisted that people should take action anyway? Can you not see the unhelpfulness right there in your comment? Consider someone who is desperate to get healthy, and is determined to do whatever it takes to do so, and has already spent years desperately trying in vain to get results; if they were to read your comment, what could their reaction be, other than to be frustrated and dispirited? For what it's worth, I do actually have answers; I've been researching and experimenting with this stuff for many years, and have figured out a approach that seems to work for me and others and should work well for anyone who follows the same principles. And I agree that calories-in/calories-out is part of it; but it's only one factor among many, and it takes a lot of time, persistence and knowhow. So perhaps you can understand that I'm familiar with your point of view, and that I've heard it frequently enough and thought about it long enough to know just how simplistic and unhelpful it is.
pan69 8y ago
You might be over simplifying things a bit. Your statement might be true for "healthy bodies" but not everyone is healthy, or even has the same body chemistry. I'm by no means an expert and the subject of obesity doesn't really interest me that much, but the other day I was reading something about obesity in relation to the over prescription on antibiotics, and how especially children who received antibiotics during their childhood might have obesity problems later in life due to how the antibiotics affect the gut bacteria. Again I'm no expert, but the calories in/out story seems just way to simple.
belorn 8y ago
Saying people are obese because they have eaten too much is like saying people die in traffic because they accelerated or decelerated too fast. Technical true but very unhelpful in describing the problem and potential solutions.
- benj111 8y ago
  How do seat belts and air bags and crumple zones work? You can't get to a solution without accepting it. You can't stop people dying by describing that fact as toxic. No it's not a, or the solution, you can't ignore I though.

Tepix 8y ago

I'm curious: What's your opinion on smoking? Genetics are also likely to be involved in the likelihood of someone (not) being able to stop smoking (perhaps also starting to smoke), right? However, I haven't heard anyone blaming their smoking habit on genetics.

AstralStorm 8y ago
There is a difference, a major one. You have to eat and you don't have to smoke. Food is everywhere, cigarettes and smokers can be avoided.
- eulalila 8y ago
  That’s good to hear, I live in a poor area with my family who smoke heavily (along with the majority of our neighbors, friends, people who serve us at the restaurants I eat at, people who we serve at the restaurants we work at, etc). I will just simply avoid almost everyone I know (and don’t know) from now on, thank you.
throwmeback 8y ago
Some people have addictive personalities.
apatters 8y ago
I don't think you can paint all smokers with the same brush but a lot of them seem to turn to the habit for the purpose of stress relief/escape and then they get hooked. The key point is the same: neither cohort benefits from being shamed by a judgey peanut gallery that reduces things to black and white, like the one in this thread. They benefit from engagement with supportive personal contacts and professionals who can help them resolve the underlying issues. The judgey peanut gallery can actually make things worse.

collyw 8y ago

> This is a toxic and harmful attitude. Removing all personal responsibility is a harmful attitude.

tomhoward 8y ago
People get into trouble on this topic by leaping to absolutes, i.e., "removing all personal responsibility". I've personally taken "all personal responsibility" for my health, and it's been hugely costly, and only possible because I've been fortunate to have the means and time to do it. There are plenty of people who try to take full responsibility for their weight or general health, but don't get results because they don't have the time or means to do it given the unlucky hand they were dealt and the realities of their life circumstances, and also because medical science just doesn't have consistently reliable solutions that work for everyone with even the greatest motivation and discipline.