5 ms·

If you like his writing, see also "Three Worlds Collide": http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_0

by gxti 16y ago

If you like his writing, see also "Three Worlds Collide": http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/

jarin 16y ago
Huge, huge, HUGE upvote. Three Worlds Collide is amazing. And if you like that, check out "Life Artificial": http://lifeartificial.com http://lifeartificial.com
araneae 16y ago
I love HP and the Methods of Rationality, and absolutely hated "Three Worlds Collide" because a)It was very contrived, and b)Rape will never be legal, sorry, unless it's an anti-feminist society similar to some Arab countries, which that society wasn't. I know it's just one little thing, but that completely killed the suspension of disbelief for me.
- AngryParsley 16y ago
  It's contrived because the goal of the story was to get people to think about metaethics. It's still pretty good for entertainment value though. b) was a reference to http://lesswrong.com/lw/xm/building_weirdtopia/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/xm/building_weirdtopia/ There was some discussion of this when the chapter was posted. The rape idea was really weird, but it made more sense after reading some of the discussion: http://lesswrong.com/lw/y8/interlude_with_the_confessor_48/qso?c=1 http://lesswrong.com/lw/y8/interlude_with_the_confessor_48/q... http://lesswrong.com/lw/y8/interlude_with_the_confessor_48/qt7?c=1 http://lesswrong.com/lw/y8/interlude_with_the_confessor_48/q... http://lesswrong.com/lw/y8/interlude_with_the_confessor_48/qtf?c=1 http://lesswrong.com/lw/y8/interlude_with_the_confessor_48/q...
  - araneae 16y ago
    I've read the comments, and the point still stands. There's a reason that I had never heard of a "weirdtopian" novel before. If something is outside of the scope of what humans are capable of, it's very jarring to one's suspension of disbelief. Just because it fits with his desire to make it weirdtopian doesn't mean I like it any better.
    - derefr 16y ago
      But isn't the basic idea that, through genetic engineering et al, we can become a species other than our own? I can't fault a science fiction story for showing the possible sociological consequences of scientific progress, no matter how much I don't "like" the direction science or society is taking—that's the whole point of science fiction, after all. People like to have protagonists with "human" values to root for in stories—in fact, it can be said that consuming narrative is basically how humans indulge in pretending to believe their own far values (by identifying with characters that act on those far values as if they were near, and then "liking" the works of writers that cause those identifiable characters to "win" the story—or, alternatively, that cause characters without those values to "lose", as in tragedies.) That's the reason that any setting, no matter how fantastic (D&D, 40k, HHGTTG) still has (something that acts and thinks like) modern-day humans. However, if you really think in Hard sci-fi terms, you begin to realize that there's no good, probable explanation for "the future" being such a setting without further, conscious intervention on our part to retain our current values (see Eliezer's "Theory of Fun" sequence.)
      - araneae 16y ago
        I'm not sure it's possible to argue someone into enjoying a work of fiction. I explained why it didn't work for me. Any work of fiction- the successful ones, anyway- will always be about people. If they're too different of a people (genetically engineered out of their humanness), then people simply won't enjoy it. There's a reason that there are virtually no popular science fiction novels where the protagonist is an alien that has a completely different value/mating systems to us. I got like a page into a story about an alternate history of Earth where birds resembling jacanas (a species where the females are behaviorally like the males of other species and v.v.) were the intelligent species on the planet. Then I realized that no-one could ever relate to or care about my characters. They were just too alien. That isn't to say there can't be great fiction where the conflict between alien races is over that difference, like 3 worlds, (Ender's Game comes to mind), but the point is always to reaffirm what it means to be human. You just can't do that if the humans in your book are alien.
        16y ago
pronoiac 16y ago
That was great! A previous discussion about "Three Worlds Collide:" http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1387771 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1387771 If you're not careful when you read it, you miss the True Ending: http://lesswrong.com/lw/yb/true_ending_sacrificial_fire_78/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/yb/true_ending_sacrificial_fire_78/

by gxti 16y ago

If you like his writing, see also "Three Worlds Collide": http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/

jarin 16y ago

Huge, huge, HUGE upvote. Three Worlds Collide is amazing. And if you like that, check out "Life Artificial": http://lifeartificial.com http://lifeartificial.com

araneae 16y ago

I love HP and the Methods of Rationality, and absolutely hated "Three Worlds Collide" because a)It was very contrived, and b)Rape will never be legal, sorry, unless it's an anti-feminist society similar to some Arab countries, which that society wasn't. I know it's just one little thing, but that completely killed the suspension of disbelief for me.

AngryParsley 16y ago
It's contrived because the goal of the story was to get people to think about metaethics. It's still pretty good for entertainment value though. b) was a reference to http://lesswrong.com/lw/xm/building_weirdtopia/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/xm/building_weirdtopia/ There was some discussion of this when the chapter was posted. The rape idea was really weird, but it made more sense after reading some of the discussion: http://lesswrong.com/lw/y8/interlude_with_the_confessor_48/qso?c=1 http://lesswrong.com/lw/y8/interlude_with_the_confessor_48/q... http://lesswrong.com/lw/y8/interlude_with_the_confessor_48/qt7?c=1 http://lesswrong.com/lw/y8/interlude_with_the_confessor_48/q... http://lesswrong.com/lw/y8/interlude_with_the_confessor_48/qtf?c=1 http://lesswrong.com/lw/y8/interlude_with_the_confessor_48/q...
- araneae 16y ago
  I've read the comments, and the point still stands. There's a reason that I had never heard of a "weirdtopian" novel before. If something is outside of the scope of what humans are capable of, it's very jarring to one's suspension of disbelief. Just because it fits with his desire to make it weirdtopian doesn't mean I like it any better.
  - derefr 16y ago
    But isn't the basic idea that, through genetic engineering et al, we can become a species other than our own? I can't fault a science fiction story for showing the possible sociological consequences of scientific progress, no matter how much I don't "like" the direction science or society is taking—that's the whole point of science fiction, after all. People like to have protagonists with "human" values to root for in stories—in fact, it can be said that consuming narrative is basically how humans indulge in pretending to believe their own far values (by identifying with characters that act on those far values as if they were near, and then "liking" the works of writers that cause those identifiable characters to "win" the story—or, alternatively, that cause characters without those values to "lose", as in tragedies.) That's the reason that any setting, no matter how fantastic (D&D, 40k, HHGTTG) still has (something that acts and thinks like) modern-day humans. However, if you really think in Hard sci-fi terms, you begin to realize that there's no good, probable explanation for "the future" being such a setting without further, conscious intervention on our part to retain our current values (see Eliezer's "Theory of Fun" sequence.)
    - araneae 16y ago
      I'm not sure it's possible to argue someone into enjoying a work of fiction. I explained why it didn't work for me. Any work of fiction- the successful ones, anyway- will always be about people. If they're too different of a people (genetically engineered out of their humanness), then people simply won't enjoy it. There's a reason that there are virtually no popular science fiction novels where the protagonist is an alien that has a completely different value/mating systems to us. I got like a page into a story about an alternate history of Earth where birds resembling jacanas (a species where the females are behaviorally like the males of other species and v.v.) were the intelligent species on the planet. Then I realized that no-one could ever relate to or care about my characters. They were just too alien. That isn't to say there can't be great fiction where the conflict between alien races is over that difference, like 3 worlds, (Ender's Game comes to mind), but the point is always to reaffirm what it means to be human. You just can't do that if the humans in your book are alien.
      - 16y ago

pronoiac 16y ago

That was great! A previous discussion about "Three Worlds Collide:" http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1387771 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1387771 If you're not careful when you read it, you miss the True Ending: http://lesswrong.com/lw/yb/true_ending_sacrificial_fire_78/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/yb/true_ending_sacrificial_fire_78/