3 ms·

Mana got himself in the same situation where he was surrounded by stalkers on multiple sides, but this time the micro wasn’t so crazy that he couldn’t manage it

Mana got himself in the same situation where he was surrounded by stalkers on multiple sides, but this time the micro wasn’t so crazy that he couldn’t manage it, and he was able to take on one group at a time. The immortal drop, while unanswered, was not really that effectual.

setr 8y ago
That time, the ai didn’t really even try to engage. In fact, the ending of the match was marked by the entirely absent group of stalkers as the natural was engaged. It’s likely safer to say the AI was confused in general at that point, possibly related to the camera change, but we didn’t really get to see the quality of stalker micro that game
- nickpsecurity 8y ago
  "possibly related to the camera change, but we didn’t really get to see the quality of stalker micro that game " In software, changes in assumptions can break what depended on them. There could be many assumptions in its neural net centered on full visibility. They should probably retrain all or just some from scratch with the camera change in from the beginning to see what happens. Then, it will be firmly encoded into the strategies over time.
  - maksimum 8y ago
    They mentioned that they retrained after the camera change and it was equivalent to the AIs that beat Mana 5-0 by their metrics.
cjbprime 8y ago
But it was answered: AlphaStar pulled a huge stalker army that was about to hit MaNa's base all the way back home to (attempt to) answer the drop, repeatedly. If you have more complexity to your army but fewer army units, as MaNa did, a delay like that is how you win the game.
- b_tterc_p 8y ago
  It’s funny because this works against the standard Ai too.
  - nickpsecurity 8y ago
    That's what I said on Lobsters. They were always good at builds, micro's, etc. The one thing they couldn't do was judge human intent, esp if they were being mislead (esp time wasting). I was waiting for one of the players to try to screw with its head to see what it did. Mana showed two gaps: the back and forth thing; that it ignored the observers giving up constant strategy information. Then, he got the first win. Now, the questions are how many more such glitches will show up and can they eliminate them with better algorithms?
  - cjbprime 8y ago
    And against human players up to Masters 3 or so :) When you're still using the all-army hotkey, defending with a small and precise group isn't happening.
TulliusCicero 8y ago
The immortal drop let him keep AlphaStar occupied while he built up a critical mass of immortals (it becomes harder and harder to effectively micro stalkers against immortals as numbers go up, probably even for an AI), then let him put AlphaStar in an awkward position when it was camping near where the warp prism was hiding.

setr 8y ago

That time, the ai didn’t really even try to engage. In fact, the ending of the match was marked by the entirely absent group of stalkers as the natural was engaged. It’s likely safer to say the AI was confused in general at that point, possibly related to the camera change, but we didn’t really get to see the quality of stalker micro that game

nickpsecurity 8y ago
"possibly related to the camera change, but we didn’t really get to see the quality of stalker micro that game " In software, changes in assumptions can break what depended on them. There could be many assumptions in its neural net centered on full visibility. They should probably retrain all or just some from scratch with the camera change in from the beginning to see what happens. Then, it will be firmly encoded into the strategies over time.
- maksimum 8y ago
  They mentioned that they retrained after the camera change and it was equivalent to the AIs that beat Mana 5-0 by their metrics.

cjbprime 8y ago

But it was answered: AlphaStar pulled a huge stalker army that was about to hit MaNa's base all the way back home to (attempt to) answer the drop, repeatedly. If you have more complexity to your army but fewer army units, as MaNa did, a delay like that is how you win the game.

b_tterc_p 8y ago
It’s funny because this works against the standard Ai too.
- nickpsecurity 8y ago
  That's what I said on Lobsters. They were always good at builds, micro's, etc. The one thing they couldn't do was judge human intent, esp if they were being mislead (esp time wasting). I was waiting for one of the players to try to screw with its head to see what it did. Mana showed two gaps: the back and forth thing; that it ignored the observers giving up constant strategy information. Then, he got the first win. Now, the questions are how many more such glitches will show up and can they eliminate them with better algorithms?
- cjbprime 8y ago
  And against human players up to Masters 3 or so :) When you're still using the all-army hotkey, defending with a small and precise group isn't happening.

TulliusCicero 8y ago

The immortal drop let him keep AlphaStar occupied while he built up a critical mass of immortals (it becomes harder and harder to effectively micro stalkers against immortals as numbers go up, probably even for an AI), then let him put AlphaStar in an awkward position when it was camping near where the warp prism was hiding.