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I would really like to see this for Age of Empires II. I think AOE has far more races and is a far more complex game ( although I'm biased because I haven't pla

by cellis 8y ago

I would really like to see this for Age of Empires II. I think AOE has far more races and is a far more complex game ( although I'm biased because I haven't played SC2 as much as AOEII ).

lucidrains 8y ago
I'm sure that once the dust settles, we will have an AlphaZero version for AlphaStar as well
aerovistae 8y ago
Same, totally agreed. I'm a really experienced competitive AoE2 player (not pro, just a serious casual), and I think the long-term planning inherent to AoE is far more complex than SC. Not to mention the procedurally generated maps that are different every game-- it's far more nuanced in my view and requires a truly vast amount of knowledge to make good decisions. There are so many different valid approaches to any given situation.
ascar 8y ago
I haven't played AOE for ages, but aren't the races only different in a few details like 2 units and some passive effects? In StarCraft races are vastly different. I can't really judge AOE's complexity, but from what do you draw your conclusion? Just based on the number of rules?
- cellis 8y ago
  Each civ (race) has about 2 different bonuses (e.g. Indian villagers work faster) and in addition a unique unit. Competitive players now play with about 20 civs. Each civ also has a "team bonus" (e.g. Teams with a Spanish player get 33% more gold per trade trip, teams with a Persian player get upgraded buildings ). In addition to that, each civ has a different tech tree, as well as starting resources or -- in rare cases -- starting units.
justfor1comment 8y ago
I have played both games and a fan of both. Starcraft is definitely more complex than AoE for AI development and that's why the researchers must have chosen it. The complexity of AI depends on how many potential decisions you can make at any point of time. Here are a few reasons why: 1) Starcraft races have completely different build trees and different advantages. This has a large cascading effect of early decisions in the game. 2) Starcraft has much more micro potential that AOE. There are many units with sort of super powers like Stalkers can teleport and infestors can take control of enemy units. In AOE, you can only issue attack commands to most units. 3) Variety of units. Since Starcraft also has air units which may or may not be able to attack ground units, you have more options within a race to create a unique army/air force combination. 4) The Starcraft map terrain is hierarchical whereas AOE happens on a flat map. There are interesting locations on the map where a smaller army may be able to defeat a larger army based on positioning.
- disconcision 8y ago
  what do you mean exactly by "The Starcraft map terrain is hierarchical"? do you mean there are more choke points?
  - bseidensticker 8y ago
    There is the concept of height. Units reveal the fog of war around them up to a certain distance unless they are a ground unit and the tile is higher than them. This leads to things like marching your units up a ramp, and not seeing that there's a ton of enemy units in there until you're right in the middle of them. Also, if units are walking through a valley, units on the high ground can shoot the ones on the low ground but not vice versa.
- olalonde 8y ago
  AoE maps are not flat and units have an attack bonus when uphill (and defense penalty when downhill). Top players will place castles on hills for example and micro their units so that they are more elevated than their opponents. AoE has monks which can take control of enemy units. The fact that Starcraft has more micro potential should make AI development easier, not harder. Micro management is a relatively mechanic task that is time consuming for humans but which a computer should excel at.

by cellis 8y ago

I would really like to see this for Age of Empires II. I think AOE has far more races and is a far more complex game ( although I'm biased because I haven't played SC2 as much as AOEII ).

lucidrains 8y ago

I'm sure that once the dust settles, we will have an AlphaZero version for AlphaStar as well

aerovistae 8y ago

Same, totally agreed. I'm a really experienced competitive AoE2 player (not pro, just a serious casual), and I think the long-term planning inherent to AoE is far more complex than SC. Not to mention the procedurally generated maps that are different every game-- it's far more nuanced in my view and requires a truly vast amount of knowledge to make good decisions. There are so many different valid approaches to any given situation.

ascar 8y ago

I haven't played AOE for ages, but aren't the races only different in a few details like 2 units and some passive effects? In StarCraft races are vastly different. I can't really judge AOE's complexity, but from what do you draw your conclusion? Just based on the number of rules?

cellis 8y ago
Each civ (race) has about 2 different bonuses (e.g. Indian villagers work faster) and in addition a unique unit. Competitive players now play with about 20 civs. Each civ also has a "team bonus" (e.g. Teams with a Spanish player get 33% more gold per trade trip, teams with a Persian player get upgraded buildings ). In addition to that, each civ has a different tech tree, as well as starting resources or -- in rare cases -- starting units.

justfor1comment 8y ago

I have played both games and a fan of both. Starcraft is definitely more complex than AoE for AI development and that's why the researchers must have chosen it. The complexity of AI depends on how many potential decisions you can make at any point of time. Here are a few reasons why: 1) Starcraft races have completely different build trees and different advantages. This has a large cascading effect of early decisions in the game. 2) Starcraft has much more micro potential that AOE. There are many units with sort of super powers like Stalkers can teleport and infestors can take control of enemy units. In AOE, you can only issue attack commands to most units. 3) Variety of units. Since Starcraft also has air units which may or may not be able to attack ground units, you have more options within a race to create a unique army/air force combination. 4) The Starcraft map terrain is hierarchical whereas AOE happens on a flat map. There are interesting locations on the map where a smaller army may be able to defeat a larger army based on positioning.

disconcision 8y ago
what do you mean exactly by "The Starcraft map terrain is hierarchical"? do you mean there are more choke points?
- bseidensticker 8y ago
  There is the concept of height. Units reveal the fog of war around them up to a certain distance unless they are a ground unit and the tile is higher than them. This leads to things like marching your units up a ramp, and not seeing that there's a ton of enemy units in there until you're right in the middle of them. Also, if units are walking through a valley, units on the high ground can shoot the ones on the low ground but not vice versa.
olalonde 8y ago
AoE maps are not flat and units have an attack bonus when uphill (and defense penalty when downhill). Top players will place castles on hills for example and micro their units so that they are more elevated than their opponents. AoE has monks which can take control of enemy units. The fact that Starcraft has more micro potential should make AI development easier, not harder. Micro management is a relatively mechanic task that is time consuming for humans but which a computer should excel at.