7 ms·

What assurances do i have that the tool you are offering me is a good tool and not a bad one?

by fuzz4lyfe 8y ago

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
asdff 8y ago
Your due diligence to research and drive change if needed.
- fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
  Why do I have to do due diligence and drive change for something I don't want or need in the first place?
  - pimmen 8y ago
    You're already prefacing that you don't need unions, it's impossible to argue against that. If you don't need or want a union membership, don't get one, nobody is saying anything else. The argument is that you will know whether or not the tool is useful if you do some research. I posit that if the market of the labor you're offering isn't very advantageous to you anymore, and if you're being mistreated by an employer when you're in a position where you can't use your financial means or time to fight back for whatever reasons, you will feel the need of someone else to fight for you because you can't just find an employer that will shower you with money two blocks away. And when I say "mistreated" I mean that everything you are entitled to in your contract is not something you can count on, so no severance, and when I say you're not in a financial position to fight back I mean that you don't have the means or the time to sue, even if you're 100% in the clear legally. If you believe that will never happen, you're likely correct. I don't think my apartment will be on fire without me noticing too, it's a very low risk of that ever happening in my life, but I still want a smoke detector. I just can't take the risk. Same thing with union membership for me, I can't take the risk of being treated the same way my ex-wife was treated when she was simultaneously struggling with depression (and wouldn't have gotten anything she was entitled to from her employer during her medical leave if someone else hadn't fought for her).
    - fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
      > If you don't need or want a union membership, don't get one, nobody is saying anything else. That is incorrect, in the US if my workplace decides to unionize I'm forced to pay union dues. I am fully in my right to criticize unions as they can be foisted upon me without my consent.
      - pimmen 8y ago
        Wow, what a weird and counterproductive way to implement unions. In Sweden, that's not even remotely how unions work, they're voluntary. That's a pretty messed up system you have, would you be more interested if they're fully voluntary?
        fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
        I'd have no problem with you joining a union provided I'm not required to also do so or pay any dues. I just don't see any benefit at the current time so I'd have little interest. It seems like another layer of bureaucratic game playing to navigate and additional costs from my perspective.
        freedomben 8y ago
        Not OP, but I'm against unions in the US for many of the same reasons. Yes, my quarrels would be fully resolved if the unions were completely voluntary. However, unions here in the US have done untold amounts of lobbying to government and employers to make them mandatory. The argument is usually that, "if membership is voluntary, some people will forgo membership but still reap the benefits of our negotiations, therefore you must force them to join us." Considering that many politicians (particularly in rust belt states) win office by getting big union endorsements, this tactic works very well. I would be likely to join a union that was voluntary, because if the leadership started doing things I disagreed with, I could quit the union, or join a competing union that was more in line with my beliefs.
        Apocryphon 8y ago
        Then what if the next wave of unions are designed to be voluntary instead of compulsory?
  - towelr34dy 8y ago
    Because you do want it. Organized labor has introduced customs that you benefit from and take for granted. All you have to do is look at the difference in quality of life that came before and after the changes we obtained from organized labor in the 1800s/early 1900s. Most people don't appreciate the extreme asymmetry between those who control capital and those who create the wealth of nations (26 individuals have the same worth as 3.5 Billion individuals) In fact, just look at the quality of life of a worker in a place with strong labor (say most of the EU) vs say, the US.
    - fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
      >In fact, just look at the quality of life of a worker in a place with strong labor (say most of the EU) vs say, the US. My wife is from the UK, I've looked into things there. I make 4 times what I would make in the UK, and that's before the additional taxes I'd pay (and before you ask the additional taxes for the NHS exceeds my spend for health insurance + copays). Sure they get about two weeks more vacation but I wouldn't trade that for 3/4ths of my salary why should I be forced to do so?
      - lhopki01 8y ago
        I'd be interested to know what job pays 4 times as much in the US as the UK. Also the UK is not a good example of a place with strong labor. It's much closer to the US. Look at quality of life in places like Germany or Austria.
        fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
        I have some particular skills, UK firms simply can't afford workers like myself and thus don't really do business in the sector. A simple payscale.com comparison (not vouching for the data, it's just the first hit on google) Average Software Engineer Salary UK: £34,981 ($44908 USD) [0] US: $83,483 [1] The median salary is roughly double, if you are an outlier that number grows to about 4 fold. [0]https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Software_Engineer/S... [1]https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/S...
  - vkou 8y ago
    I don't need 'the collaboration benefits' of having my desk in an open-office hell, but I get them anyways, with no ability to negotiate. I put up with it because it's a 'take it or leave' it condition of getting a paycheck.
  - chasing 8y ago
    If your coworkers are unionizing, maybe it would be polite to at least attempt to understand their reasons and goals before dismissing it outright as something you don't want or need.
- dandellion 8y ago
  What a lazy answer when the burden of proof is clearly on you.

What assurances do i have that the tool you are offering me is a good tool and not a bad one?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

asdff 8y ago

Your due diligence to research and drive change if needed.

fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
Why do I have to do due diligence and drive change for something I don't want or need in the first place?
- pimmen 8y ago
  You're already prefacing that you don't need unions, it's impossible to argue against that. If you don't need or want a union membership, don't get one, nobody is saying anything else. The argument is that you will know whether or not the tool is useful if you do some research. I posit that if the market of the labor you're offering isn't very advantageous to you anymore, and if you're being mistreated by an employer when you're in a position where you can't use your financial means or time to fight back for whatever reasons, you will feel the need of someone else to fight for you because you can't just find an employer that will shower you with money two blocks away. And when I say "mistreated" I mean that everything you are entitled to in your contract is not something you can count on, so no severance, and when I say you're not in a financial position to fight back I mean that you don't have the means or the time to sue, even if you're 100% in the clear legally. If you believe that will never happen, you're likely correct. I don't think my apartment will be on fire without me noticing too, it's a very low risk of that ever happening in my life, but I still want a smoke detector. I just can't take the risk. Same thing with union membership for me, I can't take the risk of being treated the same way my ex-wife was treated when she was simultaneously struggling with depression (and wouldn't have gotten anything she was entitled to from her employer during her medical leave if someone else hadn't fought for her).
  - fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
    > If you don't need or want a union membership, don't get one, nobody is saying anything else. That is incorrect, in the US if my workplace decides to unionize I'm forced to pay union dues. I am fully in my right to criticize unions as they can be foisted upon me without my consent.
    - pimmen 8y ago
      Wow, what a weird and counterproductive way to implement unions. In Sweden, that's not even remotely how unions work, they're voluntary. That's a pretty messed up system you have, would you be more interested if they're fully voluntary?
      - fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
        I'd have no problem with you joining a union provided I'm not required to also do so or pay any dues. I just don't see any benefit at the current time so I'd have little interest. It seems like another layer of bureaucratic game playing to navigate and additional costs from my perspective.
      - freedomben 8y ago
        Not OP, but I'm against unions in the US for many of the same reasons. Yes, my quarrels would be fully resolved if the unions were completely voluntary. However, unions here in the US have done untold amounts of lobbying to government and employers to make them mandatory. The argument is usually that, "if membership is voluntary, some people will forgo membership but still reap the benefits of our negotiations, therefore you must force them to join us." Considering that many politicians (particularly in rust belt states) win office by getting big union endorsements, this tactic works very well. I would be likely to join a union that was voluntary, because if the leadership started doing things I disagreed with, I could quit the union, or join a competing union that was more in line with my beliefs.
        Apocryphon 8y ago
        Then what if the next wave of unions are designed to be voluntary instead of compulsory?
- towelr34dy 8y ago
  Because you do want it. Organized labor has introduced customs that you benefit from and take for granted. All you have to do is look at the difference in quality of life that came before and after the changes we obtained from organized labor in the 1800s/early 1900s. Most people don't appreciate the extreme asymmetry between those who control capital and those who create the wealth of nations (26 individuals have the same worth as 3.5 Billion individuals) In fact, just look at the quality of life of a worker in a place with strong labor (say most of the EU) vs say, the US.
  - fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
    >In fact, just look at the quality of life of a worker in a place with strong labor (say most of the EU) vs say, the US. My wife is from the UK, I've looked into things there. I make 4 times what I would make in the UK, and that's before the additional taxes I'd pay (and before you ask the additional taxes for the NHS exceeds my spend for health insurance + copays). Sure they get about two weeks more vacation but I wouldn't trade that for 3/4ths of my salary why should I be forced to do so?
    - lhopki01 8y ago
      I'd be interested to know what job pays 4 times as much in the US as the UK. Also the UK is not a good example of a place with strong labor. It's much closer to the US. Look at quality of life in places like Germany or Austria.
      - fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
        I have some particular skills, UK firms simply can't afford workers like myself and thus don't really do business in the sector. A simple payscale.com comparison (not vouching for the data, it's just the first hit on google) Average Software Engineer Salary UK: £34,981 ($44908 USD) [0] US: $83,483 [1] The median salary is roughly double, if you are an outlier that number grows to about 4 fold. [0]https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Software_Engineer/S... [1]https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/S...
- vkou 8y ago
  I don't need 'the collaboration benefits' of having my desk in an open-office hell, but I get them anyways, with no ability to negotiate. I put up with it because it's a 'take it or leave' it condition of getting a paycheck.
- chasing 8y ago
  If your coworkers are unionizing, maybe it would be polite to at least attempt to understand their reasons and goals before dismissing it outright as something you don't want or need.
dandellion 8y ago
What a lazy answer when the burden of proof is clearly on you.