5 ms·

There is very little incentive for someone in the tech industry to unionize. Well paid, safe environment, adjustable hours, often free food and unlimited vacati

There is very little incentive for someone in the tech industry to unionize. Well paid, safe environment, adjustable hours, often free food and unlimited vacation(s). Why should I go through the extra effort, financial loss, etc. Typically to help support engineers less productive than I to keep their jobs? No thanks.

tenaciousDaniel 8y ago
afaik, the game industry is kind of an oddity. I don't fully understand it, but from what I hear, game devs are overworked and underpaid.
- giggles_giggles 8y ago
  I've heard a number of horror stories about the game dev industry that would be unheard of in the larger tech community. I've always thought this was because there was a less restricted labor supply among game developers. I knew a LOT of guys in University who got into CS because they "wanted to make games." That increases competition for the available positions, which creates unfavorable conditions for the labor pool and an easily exploitable market for employers who know there's always another eager kid lining up to "make games."
  - tenaciousDaniel 8y ago
    Yep. Weird that it doesn't restrict the labor pool though. I would love to work in games. But I'm not putting in 80 hour weeks for 75K a year. No thank you.
  - NorthOf33rd 8y ago
    And this is almost certainly coming to the rest of the industry- there is currently another front page article about the difficulty of getting into classes/programs because they are so full. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18987996 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18987996
    - tenaciousDaniel 8y ago
      It definitely hasn't hit the industry yet. I've been trying to recruit mid-level to senior devs throughout the last year - in NYC of all places - and I've had very little luck. We have an amazing in-house recruiter and nearly everyone is thoroughly unqualified. Although, we just took on an intern who absolutely kicks ass, and runs circles around people who've been doing it for 10 years. That kid makes me nervous lol.
- gh02t 8y ago
  > I don't fully understand it It's at least partially because it's so many programmers' "dream job." So many people get into programming because of their interest in games, then take jobs in the industry. They then are willing to tolerate/justify worse working conditions because they are doing something they are passionate about and the company culture has evolved to exploit that.
- benjohnson 8y ago
  I'm generally anti-union, but the game developers are treated so poorly that I completely understand. Theory: Because people like developing games, the industry has gotten used to overworking workers and replacing them with fresh meat once they burn out. There's more than enough replacements eager to work on games.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
lenticular 8y ago
"Adjustable hours" is not true everywhere, and being expected to work large amounts of unpaid overtime is extraordinarily common in this industry. There's many with companies with forced arbitration clauses for disputes and other unfair practices. Unions provide a great deal of protection against these abuses for pretty insignificant union dues. Workers have more power now due to the red-hot tech job market. This will not be true forever.
- NorthOf33rd 8y ago
  I like to think of unions a little bit like getting a vaccination. You may not need it now, or ever, and when it actually works for you, you may not be aware of it. It's a low cost way of protecting yourself from injury and loss. And, there's a bunch of people out there that are really really convinced they are terrible for you.
  - Apocryphon 8y ago
    Or health insurance.
  - docker_up 8y ago
    I'm completely okay with underperforming software engineers getting fired. I don't want some system that I'm paying for with my union dues helping them maintain a job that they don't deserve. On the other hand, I've never seen a deserving and talented software engineer out of a job for very long. And if you're talented you will get paid much much more than average. The only software engineers that want or need a union are the ones that need artificial barriers to keep them employed.
- ascar 8y ago
  > Unions provide a great deal of protection against these abuses for pretty insignificant union dues. These dues can be very significant if you factor in the pay you lose as an above average employee, when you can no longer negotiate your own salary. Unions are not a good thing for everyone in a highly competitive market with big differences in employee performance.
devoply 8y ago
> Well paid Maybe. Ask all those immigrant workers. > unlimited vacation(s). lol. rhetorical b/s.
chasing 8y ago
You're very fortunate. But I'll note that even engineers who are less productive than you deserve stability and some level of control over their work lives. So maybe consider it part of your moral imperative as a "winner" in the current economic environment to make sure other people can taste the benefits you enjoy -- even if you have deemed them "less productive."
- ChrisLomont 8y ago
  >engineers who are less productive than you deserve stability At whose cost? Do developers even less productive than that next tier deserve stability? Does the worst employee deserve stability? All those protections have a cost borne by someone.
  - chasing 8y ago
    > At whose cost? Do developers even less productive than that next tier deserve stability? Does the worst employee deserve stability? Yes. They don't deserve the best jobs at the fanciest companies, of course, but every single human being alive deserves stability. That's the baseline. If we as a civilization cannot provide that, then we need to keep working at it.
    - Jach 8y ago
      Fine, cook up a basic income scheme that won't fall apart then, but keep them out of the engineering disciplines if they can't perform above a minimum level. We can agree that we should strive for universal stability, but not universal stability in any arbitrary field of "work".
    - fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
      > very single human being alive deserves stability If that is your goal, software developers in western nations should be the least of your worries.
    - ummonk 8y ago
      They deserve stability sure, but not the right to have that stability while insisting on working in an industry they're unproductive in.
kevindqc 8y ago
It's a bit different in the gaming industry, no? ie: https://ea-spouse.livejournal.com/274.html https://ea-spouse.livejournal.com/274.html
hesdeadjim 8y ago
Game development is not the tech industry. I'm an engineer and in general if I want to work in the game industry I will end up taking a salary that is significantly less than I would if I joined any non-game tech company. Case in point, I've worked with someone at a game company that compared to the rest of the industry treats its employees very well. He was making at most $110k a year as a lead senior engineer (not including bonuses). He left the game industry and joined a well known soon-to-IPO startup as a senior engineer. He is now making $175k base with additional bonuses and stock options. I'm not complaining, but trust me, the game industry is a different beast. It's much worse if you aren't an engineer -- artists, designers and QA are often treated as disposable.
otikik 8y ago
I can see how someone working on tech might think that. But game dev is kind of a big exception inside tech. I recommend you do some googling about working conditions, salaries, stability etc.
pjmlp 8y ago
Sure there is, thanks to the union I can go home at 18h no matter what and refuse to work on weekends unless there is some incentive to do so.

tenaciousDaniel 8y ago

afaik, the game industry is kind of an oddity. I don't fully understand it, but from what I hear, game devs are overworked and underpaid.

giggles_giggles 8y ago
I've heard a number of horror stories about the game dev industry that would be unheard of in the larger tech community. I've always thought this was because there was a less restricted labor supply among game developers. I knew a LOT of guys in University who got into CS because they "wanted to make games." That increases competition for the available positions, which creates unfavorable conditions for the labor pool and an easily exploitable market for employers who know there's always another eager kid lining up to "make games."
- tenaciousDaniel 8y ago
  Yep. Weird that it doesn't restrict the labor pool though. I would love to work in games. But I'm not putting in 80 hour weeks for 75K a year. No thank you.
- NorthOf33rd 8y ago
  And this is almost certainly coming to the rest of the industry- there is currently another front page article about the difficulty of getting into classes/programs because they are so full. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18987996 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18987996
  - tenaciousDaniel 8y ago
    It definitely hasn't hit the industry yet. I've been trying to recruit mid-level to senior devs throughout the last year - in NYC of all places - and I've had very little luck. We have an amazing in-house recruiter and nearly everyone is thoroughly unqualified. Although, we just took on an intern who absolutely kicks ass, and runs circles around people who've been doing it for 10 years. That kid makes me nervous lol.
gh02t 8y ago
> I don't fully understand it It's at least partially because it's so many programmers' "dream job." So many people get into programming because of their interest in games, then take jobs in the industry. They then are willing to tolerate/justify worse working conditions because they are doing something they are passionate about and the company culture has evolved to exploit that.
benjohnson 8y ago
I'm generally anti-union, but the game developers are treated so poorly that I completely understand. Theory: Because people like developing games, the industry has gotten used to overworking workers and replacing them with fresh meat once they burn out. There's more than enough replacements eager to work on games.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

lenticular 8y ago

"Adjustable hours" is not true everywhere, and being expected to work large amounts of unpaid overtime is extraordinarily common in this industry. There's many with companies with forced arbitration clauses for disputes and other unfair practices. Unions provide a great deal of protection against these abuses for pretty insignificant union dues. Workers have more power now due to the red-hot tech job market. This will not be true forever.

NorthOf33rd 8y ago
I like to think of unions a little bit like getting a vaccination. You may not need it now, or ever, and when it actually works for you, you may not be aware of it. It's a low cost way of protecting yourself from injury and loss. And, there's a bunch of people out there that are really really convinced they are terrible for you.
- Apocryphon 8y ago
  Or health insurance.
- docker_up 8y ago
  I'm completely okay with underperforming software engineers getting fired. I don't want some system that I'm paying for with my union dues helping them maintain a job that they don't deserve. On the other hand, I've never seen a deserving and talented software engineer out of a job for very long. And if you're talented you will get paid much much more than average. The only software engineers that want or need a union are the ones that need artificial barriers to keep them employed.
ascar 8y ago
> Unions provide a great deal of protection against these abuses for pretty insignificant union dues. These dues can be very significant if you factor in the pay you lose as an above average employee, when you can no longer negotiate your own salary. Unions are not a good thing for everyone in a highly competitive market with big differences in employee performance.

devoply 8y ago

> Well paid Maybe. Ask all those immigrant workers. > unlimited vacation(s). lol. rhetorical b/s.

chasing 8y ago

You're very fortunate. But I'll note that even engineers who are less productive than you deserve stability and some level of control over their work lives. So maybe consider it part of your moral imperative as a "winner" in the current economic environment to make sure other people can taste the benefits you enjoy -- even if you have deemed them "less productive."

ChrisLomont 8y ago
>engineers who are less productive than you deserve stability At whose cost? Do developers even less productive than that next tier deserve stability? Does the worst employee deserve stability? All those protections have a cost borne by someone.
- chasing 8y ago
  > At whose cost? Do developers even less productive than that next tier deserve stability? Does the worst employee deserve stability? Yes. They don't deserve the best jobs at the fanciest companies, of course, but every single human being alive deserves stability. That's the baseline. If we as a civilization cannot provide that, then we need to keep working at it.
  - Jach 8y ago
    Fine, cook up a basic income scheme that won't fall apart then, but keep them out of the engineering disciplines if they can't perform above a minimum level. We can agree that we should strive for universal stability, but not universal stability in any arbitrary field of "work".
  - fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
    > very single human being alive deserves stability If that is your goal, software developers in western nations should be the least of your worries.
  - ummonk 8y ago
    They deserve stability sure, but not the right to have that stability while insisting on working in an industry they're unproductive in.

kevindqc 8y ago

It's a bit different in the gaming industry, no? ie: https://ea-spouse.livejournal.com/274.html https://ea-spouse.livejournal.com/274.html

hesdeadjim 8y ago

Game development is not the tech industry. I'm an engineer and in general if I want to work in the game industry I will end up taking a salary that is significantly less than I would if I joined any non-game tech company. Case in point, I've worked with someone at a game company that compared to the rest of the industry treats its employees very well. He was making at most $110k a year as a lead senior engineer (not including bonuses). He left the game industry and joined a well known soon-to-IPO startup as a senior engineer. He is now making $175k base with additional bonuses and stock options. I'm not complaining, but trust me, the game industry is a different beast. It's much worse if you aren't an engineer -- artists, designers and QA are often treated as disposable.

otikik 8y ago

I can see how someone working on tech might think that. But game dev is kind of a big exception inside tech. I recommend you do some googling about working conditions, salaries, stability etc.

pjmlp 8y ago

Sure there is, thanks to the union I can go home at 18h no matter what and refuse to work on weekends unless there is some incentive to do so.