4 ms·

It sounds like the extent of the monetization of this data (for now) is targeted in-app advertisements. And the ads sound like they're targeted on relatively t

by jawns 8y ago

It sounds like the extent of the monetization of this data (for now) is targeted in-app advertisements. And the ads sound like they're targeted on relatively tame demographic data, like a person's age, as opposed to the more private data the app collects (e.g. how often a woman has sex or where a woman is in her cycle). And even if that sensitive data were used for targeting, I would imagine it would be for things like, "Show ads for lubricants if a person is sexually active" or "Show ads for tampons during the week prior to menstruation." Which doesn't really strike me as that privacy-invading, given the nature of the app. I think the privacy implications get worse if the data is sold to third parties, or if it is used to make decisions that aren't tied to the data being tracked. For instance, imagine if insurance companies determined that there is a difference in risk between people who have sex frequently vs. infrequently and wanted to use this data to inform their underwriting decisions. That's where it gets scary.

danesparza 8y ago
"doesn't really strike me as that privacy-invading, given the nature of the app" "the privacy implications get worse if the data is sold to third parties" Aren't these two statements in direct conflict with one another?
- darawk 8y ago
  Maybe indirect. They may not currently be selling that data.
- jawns 8y ago
  A third party doesn't need to know who you are to advertise to you. If I'm an app user, and I see an ad targeted to people who are toward the end of their cycle, then the only thing the third party knows about me is that I'm toward the end of my cycle. They don't know my name or address or other PII simply by virtue of advertising to me. But if an app sells this data to a third party and includes PII that allows the third party to make observations such as, "Jane Doe did X on date Y," then that's certainly a privacy concern.
  - x220 8y ago
    So if one company has that information it's OK, but once two companies have it it's a privacy concern?
    - MSM 8y ago
      The application is specifically meant to track this information, so to me that's cost of doing business. If they sell it to other people without consent, that's an issue. It would be like if I went into H&R Block to get my taxes done. Should I be worried that they have my SSN and earnings? No, because they need that information to do the task that I'm asking of them. If they sell that to other places yes, that's a huge issue.
      - x220 8y ago
        >The application is specifically meant to track this information So a privacy risk is the cost of doing business. Knowing about it upfront and consenting to the data collection doesn't negate that. If H&R block stores all of the data you give them forever, that's a privacy concern because they could be hacked or they could (depending on relevant laws) change their mind and decide to share or sell some of that data in the future.
        MSM 8y ago
        Ideally if they have that information and it's released (either via hacking or sold without consent) the company could be sued. Unfortunately that's not the case today. You're arguing that anyone knowing anything is a privacy concern which is over the top in my eyes. You could never use a bank, file taxes, get a paycheck, hell you couldn't even ever get a job with it being a "risk" because your employer has a ton of info on you.
      - flukus 8y ago
        > The application is specifically meant to track this information, so to me that's cost of doing business. Being male I'm not familiar with the features offered by period trackers, but is there any valid reason the information has to leave your device at all?
- x220 8y ago
  It looks like the company itself targets the ads, rather than selling the data to another company to target the ads. This shouldn't actually matter. Why do you care if your private information is in the hands of company A or company B?
  - naniwaduni 8y ago
    Often people find it different when one party has the data, and has a decent track record of not broadcasting it to the world, and when the data is widely circulated. I know around here we like to assume that all data is going to suffer a security breach someday but-- - In practice, everyone has more than two levels of trust. - Someday isn't today.
    - x220 8y ago
      >In practice, everyone has more than two levels of trust. That is true, but that doesn't mean that two levels of trust is not a privacy concern merely because everyone does it. >Someday isn't today I felt appalled after reading this. If you genuinely hold that belief, I hope your circumstances are merciful towards you.
      - naniwaduni 8y ago
        > That is true, but that doesn't mean that two levels of trust is not a privacy concern merely because everyone does it. I feel appalled after reading this. If you genuinely hold that belief, I hope your circumstances are merciful towards you.
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    Because if I can say "you may use information I give you in the app to show me ads without disclosing who I am and any of my PHI" then there's a bright line. I only need to worry about company A mishandling the data. If I allow selling, I need to know about the myriad companies that A may deal with, not just B. I have no problem sharing information for services. I just want to have controls on that.
AlexandrB 8y ago
Did you read the article? > Ovia is pitching a paid version of its app to insurers and large employers who want a heads-up on how many of their members or employees want to conceive. This is a WTF of epic proportions. How is this the business of either my insurance company or my employer? Edit: Also consider that supposedly "harmless" targeted advertising becomes actively traumatizing if something goes wrong around the reproductive process: https://medium.com/the-establishment/when-targeted-marketing-does-harm-2af868098cb4 https://medium.com/the-establishment/when-targeted-marketing...
- moftz 8y ago
  Imagine a woman conveniently getting laid off just about the time she is trying to conceive. A company could offer paid maternity leave but lay off women right before they get pregnant. Or they could deny them a promotion because she's trying to get pregnant, why promote then when they will leave in six months? Or they apply this to potential candidates, women that don't keep track of their cycles are probably less likely to have kids soon so hire them over women that do keep track. People should be wary about handing over any information that could be used against them.

by jawns 8y ago

danesparza 8y ago

"doesn't really strike me as that privacy-invading, given the nature of the app" "the privacy implications get worse if the data is sold to third parties" Aren't these two statements in direct conflict with one another?

darawk 8y ago
Maybe indirect. They may not currently be selling that data.
jawns 8y ago
A third party doesn't need to know who you are to advertise to you. If I'm an app user, and I see an ad targeted to people who are toward the end of their cycle, then the only thing the third party knows about me is that I'm toward the end of my cycle. They don't know my name or address or other PII simply by virtue of advertising to me. But if an app sells this data to a third party and includes PII that allows the third party to make observations such as, "Jane Doe did X on date Y," then that's certainly a privacy concern.
- x220 8y ago
  So if one company has that information it's OK, but once two companies have it it's a privacy concern?
  - MSM 8y ago
    The application is specifically meant to track this information, so to me that's cost of doing business. If they sell it to other people without consent, that's an issue. It would be like if I went into H&R Block to get my taxes done. Should I be worried that they have my SSN and earnings? No, because they need that information to do the task that I'm asking of them. If they sell that to other places yes, that's a huge issue.
    - x220 8y ago
      >The application is specifically meant to track this information So a privacy risk is the cost of doing business. Knowing about it upfront and consenting to the data collection doesn't negate that. If H&R block stores all of the data you give them forever, that's a privacy concern because they could be hacked or they could (depending on relevant laws) change their mind and decide to share or sell some of that data in the future.
      - MSM 8y ago
        Ideally if they have that information and it's released (either via hacking or sold without consent) the company could be sued. Unfortunately that's not the case today. You're arguing that anyone knowing anything is a privacy concern which is over the top in my eyes. You could never use a bank, file taxes, get a paycheck, hell you couldn't even ever get a job with it being a "risk" because your employer has a ton of info on you.
    - flukus 8y ago
      > The application is specifically meant to track this information, so to me that's cost of doing business. Being male I'm not familiar with the features offered by period trackers, but is there any valid reason the information has to leave your device at all?
x220 8y ago
It looks like the company itself targets the ads, rather than selling the data to another company to target the ads. This shouldn't actually matter. Why do you care if your private information is in the hands of company A or company B?
- naniwaduni 8y ago
  Often people find it different when one party has the data, and has a decent track record of not broadcasting it to the world, and when the data is widely circulated. I know around here we like to assume that all data is going to suffer a security breach someday but-- - In practice, everyone has more than two levels of trust. - Someday isn't today.
  - x220 8y ago
    >In practice, everyone has more than two levels of trust. That is true, but that doesn't mean that two levels of trust is not a privacy concern merely because everyone does it. >Someday isn't today I felt appalled after reading this. If you genuinely hold that belief, I hope your circumstances are merciful towards you.
    - naniwaduni 8y ago
      > That is true, but that doesn't mean that two levels of trust is not a privacy concern merely because everyone does it. I feel appalled after reading this. If you genuinely hold that belief, I hope your circumstances are merciful towards you.
- scarejunba 8y ago
  Because if I can say "you may use information I give you in the app to show me ads without disclosing who I am and any of my PHI" then there's a bright line. I only need to worry about company A mishandling the data. If I allow selling, I need to know about the myriad companies that A may deal with, not just B. I have no problem sharing information for services. I just want to have controls on that.

AlexandrB 8y ago

Did you read the article? > Ovia is pitching a paid version of its app to insurers and large employers who want a heads-up on how many of their members or employees want to conceive. This is a WTF of epic proportions. How is this the business of either my insurance company or my employer? Edit: Also consider that supposedly "harmless" targeted advertising becomes actively traumatizing if something goes wrong around the reproductive process: https://medium.com/the-establishment/when-targeted-marketing-does-harm-2af868098cb4 https://medium.com/the-establishment/when-targeted-marketing...

moftz 8y ago
Imagine a woman conveniently getting laid off just about the time she is trying to conceive. A company could offer paid maternity leave but lay off women right before they get pregnant. Or they could deny them a promotion because she's trying to get pregnant, why promote then when they will leave in six months? Or they apply this to potential candidates, women that don't keep track of their cycles are probably less likely to have kids soon so hire them over women that do keep track. People should be wary about handing over any information that could be used against them.