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I love this episode but was surprised that wikipedia said this: > It is often cited as one of the best episodes of the both The Next Generation series and the

I love this episode but was surprised that wikipedia said this: > It is often cited as one of the best episodes of the both The Next Generation series and the entire family of the several Star Trek television series.

RegBarclay 8y ago
Agreed. I would grant that Darmok is in the top 5 TNG episodes, but I haven't seen that kind of praise for Darmok across the entire series.
joshuaheard 8y ago
It was definitely the most innovative episode. My favorite was the first Borg episode where they finally met someone they couldn't defeat that wanted to destroy them. OP: an example of shared fiction he uses in the book is the law. The law is a fiction in the sense that it is not a physical object, but a group of shared concepts that allows society to be built to a higher order. "Sapiens" is a great read.
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  > It was definitely the most innovative episode. How so? I always hated that episode because it's a straightforward story of developing communications through a language barrier, except that Star Trek is very clear that language barriers don't exist. So it just ends up being an incoherent plot hole. But the concept of a language barrier isn't exactly new.
  - joshuaheard 8y ago
    Well, I don't think a language barrier is something that doesn't exist in the ST universe. They have the universal translator, and I only remember a couple of episodes where it didn't work. Certainly they ran into completely different life forms, such as silicate based and energy based where presumably communication would be a challenge. This episode explored the language barrier as the other language was referentially based and unlike our own language. It was difficult for Picard to learn. To make that the basis of an episode was unique, I thought. My other favorite episode was where Picard got shocked by a probe and lived an entire life in only a few minutes. The probe was a device to teach others about a lost culture.
    - thaumasiotes 8y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inner_Light_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)#Critical_reception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inner_Light_(Star_Trek:_Th... But Darmok doesn't work. To say "the other language is referentially based" is conceptually incoherent. What you're really saying is that "Shaka, when the walls fell" is a very long word for "sad". If the Tamarians really don't speak except in these references, then they aren't references -- they have no internal structure and no meaning other than the surface one. The universal translator wouldn't have them saying "Shaka, when the walls fell." or "Temba, his arms wide.", it would have them saying "Sad." or "Welcome.". That's what a word is. If the Tamarians can understand a language that isn't just "references", for example because they have to teach their children to speak, then the events of the episode are nonsense, because Picard is speaking perfectly intelligibly.

RegBarclay 8y ago

Agreed. I would grant that Darmok is in the top 5 TNG episodes, but I haven't seen that kind of praise for Darmok across the entire series.

joshuaheard 8y ago

It was definitely the most innovative episode. My favorite was the first Borg episode where they finally met someone they couldn't defeat that wanted to destroy them. OP: an example of shared fiction he uses in the book is the law. The law is a fiction in the sense that it is not a physical object, but a group of shared concepts that allows society to be built to a higher order. "Sapiens" is a great read.

thaumasiotes 8y ago
> It was definitely the most innovative episode. How so? I always hated that episode because it's a straightforward story of developing communications through a language barrier, except that Star Trek is very clear that language barriers don't exist. So it just ends up being an incoherent plot hole. But the concept of a language barrier isn't exactly new.
- joshuaheard 8y ago
  Well, I don't think a language barrier is something that doesn't exist in the ST universe. They have the universal translator, and I only remember a couple of episodes where it didn't work. Certainly they ran into completely different life forms, such as silicate based and energy based where presumably communication would be a challenge. This episode explored the language barrier as the other language was referentially based and unlike our own language. It was difficult for Picard to learn. To make that the basis of an episode was unique, I thought. My other favorite episode was where Picard got shocked by a probe and lived an entire life in only a few minutes. The probe was a device to teach others about a lost culture.
  - thaumasiotes 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inner_Light_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)#Critical_reception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inner_Light_(Star_Trek:_Th... But Darmok doesn't work. To say "the other language is referentially based" is conceptually incoherent. What you're really saying is that "Shaka, when the walls fell" is a very long word for "sad". If the Tamarians really don't speak except in these references, then they aren't references -- they have no internal structure and no meaning other than the surface one. The universal translator wouldn't have them saying "Shaka, when the walls fell." or "Temba, his arms wide.", it would have them saying "Sad." or "Welcome.". That's what a word is. If the Tamarians can understand a language that isn't just "references", for example because they have to teach their children to speak, then the events of the episode are nonsense, because Picard is speaking perfectly intelligibly.