6 ms·

First, toilet paper is taxed at the same rates pads and tampons are. Second, stealing is not OK. And if they put pads and/or tampons in toilets they'll disappe

by dankiz 8y ago

First, toilet paper is taxed at the same rates pads and tampons are. Second, stealing is not OK. And if they put pads and/or tampons in toilets they'll disappear in a matter of minutes. If you think only a dirt poor woman would steal them, you are wrong.

mcv 8y ago
Stealing is wrong, but there are products where, if someone were to steal them in small amounts, I'm kinda okay with it. I have no experience with pads and tampons and I don't know if they belong in this category, but when I buy bread, I leave it in my bike while I buy other groceries. If someone were to steal my bread (hasn't happened yet), I'd assume they probably need it more than I do.
- dankiz 8y ago
  >there are products where, if someone were to steal them in small amounts, I'm kinda okay with it. Okay. I am not. We could have a national referendum, "are you okay with people stealing your stuff?". Let's see what happens. The day the bread disappears from your bike, I can assure the chances that someone is going to eat it are slim. He'll probably just throw it away for laughs.
  - dijit 8y ago
    This is a really odd stance to take; and a horrible argument. It's not "OK" to steal anything, but you risk toilet paper being stolen by having it in a public place. The loss of a roll (or 2) of toilet papers is very low compared to the convenience of not having to bring your own toilet roll everywhere. We live in a society and that involves a certain level of (policed) trust, if the cost of having a great convenience is that it sometimes gets stolen then if the cost is low enough and the convenience is high enough it's worth it.
    - whatshisface 8y ago
      Toilet paper containers are usually locked in public places.
      - dijit 8y ago
        You could very easily create containers for tampons and pads that only give you one at a time. If you wanted to be slightly more "evil" you could easily make it so removal of the pads would pull away part of the plastic seal; making them impossible to sell and harder to hoard.
        jessaustin 8y ago
        In fact such dispensers have been created. https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/H-1018/Bathroom-Supplies/Feminine-Hygiene-Dispenser https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/H-1018/Bathroom-Supplie...
  - simonh 8y ago
    Society decides that a certain degree of criminal activity is 'acceptable' in some sense all the time. That's why, even though it would reduce crime, we don't double our policing budget. At some point we decide that the expected reduction in crime isn't worth the extra expenditure.
    - mises 8y ago
      No, we deem that the return after a certain point is smaller than the return when invested elsewhere. That does not mean we accept or condone crime. I know someone who lives in Houston. Houston is the "human trafficking capital of the world", so the police are rather busy. This friend had someone smash his window and steal his brand-new leather briefcase with his brand-new laptop inside. The police barely managed to take a police report, because they are "busy". The problem with allowing a "certain amount of crime" is that it's inherently a bright-line issue. What level is acceptable? What dollar amount? Bread is okay but a laptop is wrong; where in between those does the line fall?
      - matt4077 8y ago
        Love how you managed to slip some xenophobia in this completely unrelated argument.
      - simonh 8y ago
        Accepting something might happen, while explicitly stating that it's wrong as mcv did, isn't equatable to condoning it. Nothing that has been said in this thread can be reasonably construed as condoning crime. It's pretty obvious what was being said. I don't think nit picking technical objections based on exaggerations and then extending from minor tampon pilferage to robbery with violence is constructive.
        mcv 8y ago
        For me it's a bit more than accepting it might happen. If someone is so hungry that they have to steal bread, I hope they will steal my bread. For two reasons: bread is a really basic necessity. You starve if you can't eat. Fortunately almost nobody is that desperate, but if they are, I can't blame them for trying to stay alive. Secondly: bread is cheap. I can easily afford to lose some and not care. If it helps someone stay alive, then I'm glad. And I'm not the only one who thinks this way. A Dutch bishop has said something similar a decade or so ago. To some controversy, because condoning crime, but if your life is at stake, you've got to do what you've got to do. Of course society has some responsibility to ensure nobody ever gets that desperate, and seems to be doing a reasonable job at that, since nobody has stolen my bread yet. But if they did, I'd be fine with it. To get back to the original topic: I don't think sanitary pads and tampons are quite on the same level of bread, but I still don't see theft from public toilets as a serious source of concern.
  - mcv 8y ago
    > The day the bread disappears from your bike, I can assure the chances that someone > is going to eat it are slim. He'll probably just throw it away for laughs. Why? What's so funny about throwing away someone's bread? If you think destroying someone's property is funny, then throwing the entire bike into the canal, or destroying a car, is probably far more laughs. And indeed there are people who do that, sadly. But it's fairly rare, and nobody seems to care much about bread. What does happen is people using the crate on my bike as a trash can. I hate that. That's not something I'm okay with.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  >Stealing is wrong, but there are products where, if someone were to steal them in small amounts, I'm kinda okay with it. If you are OK with someone taking something then by definition it cannot be stolen. The kids on Halloween aren't stealing candy. Another example would be if we were best friends and I borrowed your lawnmower without asking: it would be stealing if you didn't want me to do that but if I knew you were fine with it that would be just fine. If you want to put something in public bathrooms and if you want it to be fine for people to take it out with them, what you're proposing is not even slightly comparable to "legalized stealing," you're just proposing that we should give away free stuff. (Hey, it works fine with water.)
  - mcv 8y ago
    There are two sides to that: intent of the thief and intent of the owner. If you borrow my lawnmower, even if I'm not okay with it, you may still, from your perspective, be borrowing it and bring it back. If someone takes my bread, I may not have a big problem with that, but if I hadn't put up a sign saying: "Free bread, please take some", the thief wouldn't know and wouldn't have permission to take it. The issue is easy when both sides agree on what it is, but there's grey area in between.
darekkay 8y ago
> First, toilet paper is taxed at the same rates pads and tampons are. In Germany they aren't. Tampons are "luxury articles" here, which was questioned a lot in the past, yet nothing happened.
- kaybe 8y ago
  As is bottled water btw, but not juice.
  - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
    In Germany bottled water IS a luxury - you don't need to buy bottled water. If juice came from water fountains, they could probably consider that a luxury item as well.
    - kaybe 8y ago
      In some places the water tastes really horrible. It's of course safe to drink, but it tastes horrible. I don't think this is a good argument (I know it's not yours).
nailer 8y ago
1. I don't know if you live in India or the US or somewhere else, but that's awesome. You however don't know where I live so please stop correcting me on 'facts' that aren't relevant worldwide. They're classed as 'luxury goods' in the UK: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-42013239 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-42013239 2. People steal toilet paper all the time. It's not considered a big deal, probably because every loo has toilet paper - I'm sure you see the point here. If someone steals it from a cafe for their house (which happens, if you've worked in the service industry) nobody really cares.
- sokoloff 8y ago
  If they're classed as 'luxury goods', why are they being taxed at a lower VAT rate than standard goods? That seems a particularly odd combination.
  - nailer 8y ago
    Essentials, like food, are at 0%. From Sep 2018: https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/6657416/period-poverty-uk-tax-sanitary-products-tampons-towels-free/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/6657416/period-poverty-uk-tax... > Then-Chancellor George Osborne said he was not allowed to lower the VAT rate because of EU rules that class sanitary products as "luxury" or "non-essential". > Equalities minister Victoria Atkins also said VAT would be scrapped as soon as Britain leaves the EU.
    - zimpenfish 8y ago
      Well, the EU agreed that they could be 0% rated in March 2016. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35834142 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35834142 If the Government haven't addressed it, it's entirely down to their own instransigence, no?
      - jamiek88 8y ago
        That’s what successive British governments of both sides have done for decades. Blame the EU
flyingpenguin 8y ago
> And if they put pads and/or tampons in toilets they'll disappear in a matter of minutes. If you think only a dirt poor woman would steal them, you are wrong. Why? If every single bathroom everywhere had them why would you bother to steal them? They are free.

by dankiz 8y ago

mcv 8y ago

Stealing is wrong, but there are products where, if someone were to steal them in small amounts, I'm kinda okay with it. I have no experience with pads and tampons and I don't know if they belong in this category, but when I buy bread, I leave it in my bike while I buy other groceries. If someone were to steal my bread (hasn't happened yet), I'd assume they probably need it more than I do.

dankiz 8y ago
>there are products where, if someone were to steal them in small amounts, I'm kinda okay with it. Okay. I am not. We could have a national referendum, "are you okay with people stealing your stuff?". Let's see what happens. The day the bread disappears from your bike, I can assure the chances that someone is going to eat it are slim. He'll probably just throw it away for laughs.
- dijit 8y ago
  This is a really odd stance to take; and a horrible argument. It's not "OK" to steal anything, but you risk toilet paper being stolen by having it in a public place. The loss of a roll (or 2) of toilet papers is very low compared to the convenience of not having to bring your own toilet roll everywhere. We live in a society and that involves a certain level of (policed) trust, if the cost of having a great convenience is that it sometimes gets stolen then if the cost is low enough and the convenience is high enough it's worth it.
  - whatshisface 8y ago
    Toilet paper containers are usually locked in public places.
    - dijit 8y ago
      You could very easily create containers for tampons and pads that only give you one at a time. If you wanted to be slightly more "evil" you could easily make it so removal of the pads would pull away part of the plastic seal; making them impossible to sell and harder to hoard.
      - jessaustin 8y ago
        In fact such dispensers have been created. https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/H-1018/Bathroom-Supplies/Feminine-Hygiene-Dispenser https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/H-1018/Bathroom-Supplie...
- simonh 8y ago
  Society decides that a certain degree of criminal activity is 'acceptable' in some sense all the time. That's why, even though it would reduce crime, we don't double our policing budget. At some point we decide that the expected reduction in crime isn't worth the extra expenditure.
  - mises 8y ago
    No, we deem that the return after a certain point is smaller than the return when invested elsewhere. That does not mean we accept or condone crime. I know someone who lives in Houston. Houston is the "human trafficking capital of the world", so the police are rather busy. This friend had someone smash his window and steal his brand-new leather briefcase with his brand-new laptop inside. The police barely managed to take a police report, because they are "busy". The problem with allowing a "certain amount of crime" is that it's inherently a bright-line issue. What level is acceptable? What dollar amount? Bread is okay but a laptop is wrong; where in between those does the line fall?
    - matt4077 8y ago
      Love how you managed to slip some xenophobia in this completely unrelated argument.
    - simonh 8y ago
      Accepting something might happen, while explicitly stating that it's wrong as mcv did, isn't equatable to condoning it. Nothing that has been said in this thread can be reasonably construed as condoning crime. It's pretty obvious what was being said. I don't think nit picking technical objections based on exaggerations and then extending from minor tampon pilferage to robbery with violence is constructive.
      - mcv 8y ago
        For me it's a bit more than accepting it might happen. If someone is so hungry that they have to steal bread, I hope they will steal my bread. For two reasons: bread is a really basic necessity. You starve if you can't eat. Fortunately almost nobody is that desperate, but if they are, I can't blame them for trying to stay alive. Secondly: bread is cheap. I can easily afford to lose some and not care. If it helps someone stay alive, then I'm glad. And I'm not the only one who thinks this way. A Dutch bishop has said something similar a decade or so ago. To some controversy, because condoning crime, but if your life is at stake, you've got to do what you've got to do. Of course society has some responsibility to ensure nobody ever gets that desperate, and seems to be doing a reasonable job at that, since nobody has stolen my bread yet. But if they did, I'd be fine with it. To get back to the original topic: I don't think sanitary pads and tampons are quite on the same level of bread, but I still don't see theft from public toilets as a serious source of concern.
- mcv 8y ago
  > The day the bread disappears from your bike, I can assure the chances that someone > is going to eat it are slim. He'll probably just throw it away for laughs. Why? What's so funny about throwing away someone's bread? If you think destroying someone's property is funny, then throwing the entire bike into the canal, or destroying a car, is probably far more laughs. And indeed there are people who do that, sadly. But it's fairly rare, and nobody seems to care much about bread. What does happen is people using the crate on my bike as a trash can. I hate that. That's not something I'm okay with.
whatshisface 8y ago
>Stealing is wrong, but there are products where, if someone were to steal them in small amounts, I'm kinda okay with it. If you are OK with someone taking something then by definition it cannot be stolen. The kids on Halloween aren't stealing candy. Another example would be if we were best friends and I borrowed your lawnmower without asking: it would be stealing if you didn't want me to do that but if I knew you were fine with it that would be just fine. If you want to put something in public bathrooms and if you want it to be fine for people to take it out with them, what you're proposing is not even slightly comparable to "legalized stealing," you're just proposing that we should give away free stuff. (Hey, it works fine with water.)
- mcv 8y ago
  There are two sides to that: intent of the thief and intent of the owner. If you borrow my lawnmower, even if I'm not okay with it, you may still, from your perspective, be borrowing it and bring it back. If someone takes my bread, I may not have a big problem with that, but if I hadn't put up a sign saying: "Free bread, please take some", the thief wouldn't know and wouldn't have permission to take it. The issue is easy when both sides agree on what it is, but there's grey area in between.

darekkay 8y ago

> First, toilet paper is taxed at the same rates pads and tampons are. In Germany they aren't. Tampons are "luxury articles" here, which was questioned a lot in the past, yet nothing happened.

kaybe 8y ago
As is bottled water btw, but not juice.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
  In Germany bottled water IS a luxury - you don't need to buy bottled water. If juice came from water fountains, they could probably consider that a luxury item as well.
  - kaybe 8y ago
    In some places the water tastes really horrible. It's of course safe to drink, but it tastes horrible. I don't think this is a good argument (I know it's not yours).

nailer 8y ago

1. I don't know if you live in India or the US or somewhere else, but that's awesome. You however don't know where I live so please stop correcting me on 'facts' that aren't relevant worldwide. They're classed as 'luxury goods' in the UK: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-42013239 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-42013239 2. People steal toilet paper all the time. It's not considered a big deal, probably because every loo has toilet paper - I'm sure you see the point here. If someone steals it from a cafe for their house (which happens, if you've worked in the service industry) nobody really cares.

sokoloff 8y ago
If they're classed as 'luxury goods', why are they being taxed at a lower VAT rate than standard goods? That seems a particularly odd combination.
- nailer 8y ago
  Essentials, like food, are at 0%. From Sep 2018: https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/6657416/period-poverty-uk-tax-sanitary-products-tampons-towels-free/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/6657416/period-poverty-uk-tax... > Then-Chancellor George Osborne said he was not allowed to lower the VAT rate because of EU rules that class sanitary products as "luxury" or "non-essential". > Equalities minister Victoria Atkins also said VAT would be scrapped as soon as Britain leaves the EU.
  - zimpenfish 8y ago
    Well, the EU agreed that they could be 0% rated in March 2016. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35834142 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35834142 If the Government haven't addressed it, it's entirely down to their own instransigence, no?
    - jamiek88 8y ago
      That’s what successive British governments of both sides have done for decades. Blame the EU

flyingpenguin 8y ago

> And if they put pads and/or tampons in toilets they'll disappear in a matter of minutes. If you think only a dirt poor woman would steal them, you are wrong. Why? If every single bathroom everywhere had them why would you bother to steal them? They are free.